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Should we abort these puppies?

Discussion in 'Rescue & Adoption' started by Jeanniet88, Jul 25, 2016.

  1. Jeanniet88

    Jeanniet88 Novitiate

    I recently rescued two beautiful dobermans from an animal shelter that were unaltered. I have minimal information about them except that they were relinquished together. They are very young, maybe one year old at the most. They are purebred red dobermans. I do not know if they are related, but I assume they are siblings because they are similar in age and look alike.
    The female is pregnant, early in her pregnancy. I already have her scheduled for a spay later this week, and the boy to get neutered at the same time. I had a sinking feeling that she is pregnant because the boy seems very interested in smelling her vulva. She is very skinny and doesn't show a bulge at all. And it's so early in the pregnancy that her blood test for relaxin was only very very slightly positive. However, the ultrasound shows some pups, very early on.
    Here are my questions:
    Should I abort these pups? I have no idea if the parents are siblings. They may end up being genetically compromised. Have you heard of the result when people breed siblings? Would this be a genetic disaster?
    Can anyone tell me if they have heard of siblings breeding and what happens to the pups?
    My inclination is to go ahead and spay her as we had planned. Will spaying during pregnancy be dangerous for her? She's so young, I don't think its good for such a young dog to have babies.
    Should I get them tested for carrying certain diseases and then consider keeping the pups?
    I've fostered many dogs for various rescue organizations and I have experience with puppies. The rescue will have no trouble finding homes for these puppies, but I wonder if I should terminate this pregnancy since these are not planned and I'm not a breeder. In the past when I've fostered puppies, it was because the saved mom was much further in her pregnancy.

     
  2. AresMyDobie

    AresMyDobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Oh my goodness I'm sorry. Honestly yes there is a lot that is not good about this pregnancy, from her not even being mature to her being bred with her brother. The pups health would be extremely questionable as well as there temperaments :/ such a hard call but if it were me personally I would probably go ahead and terminate the preganancy ... I know that sounds so terrible to say but so would be having genetically unsound pups that will more then likely suffer from a life time of health problems ... I hope others chime in to give you some advice. Welcome as well, would love to see pics :)
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Ingrid H

    Ingrid H Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I'd want to go ahead with the spay as long as your vet thinks it won't hurt your girl.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  4. JanS

    JanS DCF Owner Administrative Staff Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I'm sorry you're in this situation. :( I would definitely abort (if she's not too far into it) and have her spayed. We usually like to wait a bit for spay/neuter, but if they're almost a year old I'd go ahead with it for her.

    Make yourself at home and we'd love to see some pics of them!
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Tropicalbri's

    Tropicalbri's $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I would definitely abort and spay. We did many of them in our practice when the circumstances were called for. Age and health of the bitch were a factor and it was in the best interest of the bitches health and possible health issues with the puppies with that type of accidental breeding. If she isn't far along, then the sooner the better.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  6. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Welcome! Well, I don't have medical knowledge and thus can't answer as to the health of the momma giving birth so young.

    I know that it happens all the time though and I imagine the dogs fare okay much of the time. Then again I am thinking of mixed breed dogs with a broader gene pool than a purebred.

    As to the question of does an inbreeding necessarily mean health problems for the pups? I do not think that is the case. In theory, more likely to have health problems, yes.

    I know of an accidental breeding between siblings that were one year and some months old. This from a good breeder. The pups were all snatched up. What does the future hold for them? I don't know, but the breeder did not abort. Then again, this is from known, quality stock. The Doberpups you adopted are from unknown breeding and technically could be from inbreeding themselves which would multiply the risk.

    If I had to make the call, I'd probably abort the pups. If they are allowed to be birthed, I'd be concerned that not all of them would wind up altered and more pups might result.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  7. Archer

    Archer Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Hi and welcome from Kansas. Thank you for adopting and rescuing. Was your female in whelp before you adopted her? If not and the breeding took place after the adoption, there is a mismatch injection Vets can give after an accidental breeding that causes the bitch's body to terminate the pregnancy, but it has to be given early on. I know you are spaying/neutering your two, so I was sharing this information for educational purposes, or for someone who might be in a similar situation. Typically the vet will do a vaginal smear to conform pregnancy and the injection can be given thereafter.

    As far as your original question, I am torn. I agree with what has been said above me, but I believe that all lives matter. Could there possibly be health issues associated with this litter? There could be. It is highly likely. It is only assumed that these two are litter mates. I know of reputable breeders who breed as closely as father/daughter with success, but we are talking about dogs with proven lineage that are health tested. Health-wise they are a gamble, but a few well bred litters out there are too. In theory, Oh Little Oji is correct. If your dogs are inbred and then bred to each other a genetic snowball affect does exist. It can increase the percentage of them passing on genetic health issues from 50-100%. I look at it like this, would you terminate a pregnancy if you knew your baby would have Down's Syndrome, or if you were a genetic carrier for breast cancer? I wouldn't.

    I can't imagine what an emotional struggle this is for you. You are the only person who can make this decision for you and your girl. My main concern would be the health of the mother as she is young. It is possible that having a litter at her age could affect her later in life as her body isn't emotionally mature enough at this age. If you haven't ever whelped or reared a litter, it is not for the faint of heart and requires a lot of time and dedication (and money, lol). If you decide not to terminate the pregnancy, I am sure there are breeders or a local rescue that will offer their help and support. A rescue, especially a Doberman specific one might even help in assisting you finding them homes.

    I have to add that I am new to the breeding world and just bred my first litter. I am very active in multiple dog sports, including AKC conformation and am VERY PRO responsible breeding. I just believe that every life deserves a chance, despite how they were brought into the world. My opinion is probably not a popular one, but if I was in your situation I would not terminate. My exception would be if the bitch's life was in danger.

    This is not going to be the most popular answer I am sure, but I felt the need to advocate for the lives of the puppies. No matter what you decide to do, we are here for you if you need anything.
     
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    • Informative Informative x 1
  8. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    First things first. Find out if she is in fact pregnant. If so, I agree with @Archer. But I'm speaking for myself. A litter is ton of work and expensive. If this does happen, I would collect a deposit from the new puppy owners (substantial enough that they are going to want it back) and put it in an account and leave it alone. When then owners have the pups spayed/neutered give them the deposit back. If you don't like that idea, find something will make sure the pups are sterilized. Breeding should only be done for the betterment of the breed.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. MischasMomma

    MischasMomma Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I didn't want to be the odd one out, especially since I have no medical or breeding background. I absolutely whole heartedly agree with @Archer. Imho, all lives matter, including puppies. Sure there's a chance they may not be the healthiest, or may have problems, but I really like archers example of a human baby with potential problems. I feel exactly the same about human pro choice; unless the mothers health is at risk, babies should not be aborted. Again, Jmho. I'm sure I'll be with Archer on the not very popular answer side here, but it's my opinion and how I feel. Whatever your decision, we're here for you though! I couldn't imagine being in that spot and determining what's best for momma while still keeping the puppies in mind!

    Sent from my SM-G935V using the Doberman Chat mobile app
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Appreciation Appreciation x 1
  10. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    There is a complete and total difference between a human life and that of an animal.

    For the sake of argument: The lives of all living things matter? Where do you draw the line?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  11. MischasMomma

    MischasMomma Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    The lives of all animals matter, imo. I don't hunt, I don't fish either, before you ask that lol. No I am not vegan, but I personally feel that an unplanned pregnancy deserves a chance at life, again unless mom's health is in danger.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using the Doberman Chat mobile app
     
  12. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Insects then? Does a flea's life matter?
     
    • Funny Funny x 1
  13. MischasMomma

    MischasMomma Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Good point. I don't do bugs. Period. Defeat accepted.

    Sent from my SM-G935V using the Doberman Chat mobile app
     
    • Funny Funny x 3
  14. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Wasn't trying to hassle ya'.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  15. Archer

    Archer Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    There's not a difference to many, myself included. My dogs are my children. They are dogs, yes but I love them like I would any human child and I would put my own life on the line if it meant saving the life of my dogs. They would do the same for me. Loyal until the end.

    The definition of a living thing has variables. To me, a living thing carries a conscious. Bugs don't have one ;)

    I didn't intend on making this into a pro-life thread. I was simply answering the question asked by the OP with honesty.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  16. Rits

    Rits Admin Administrative Staff Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Personally, if it isn't a purposefully bred litter and she isn't far along, I feel there are enough dogs of similar qualities in the shelter that I personally would abort. If you knew the heritage behind the litter and it was an oops litter, or she was already far along, that I could understand. It's the bringing into this world more pups that may also possibly not be fixed and thus creating a perpetual cycle of dogs with unknown history and then being added to the population (that does nothing for the breed), that helps me form my opinion.

    It really comes down to what you feel is best for her first, and then what is best for the breed, and lastly for unwanted dogs, that matters.

    Domestic dog breeding and people reproducing are two very different things, imo.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  17. Archer

    Archer Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I agree with everything you said here which is why I said I was torn. Emotions on one end of the decision, logic on the other.

    I firmly believe that there are some humans out there that genetically shouldn't reproduce, but no need to go that far OT. Lol.
     
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    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. MischasMomma

    MischasMomma Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I was thinking those same exact words lol

    Sent from my SM-G935V using the Doberman Chat mobile app
     
  19. salisa826

    salisa826 Hot Topics Subscriber

    I don't have much to offer here. But I'm wondering is it possible that the male you have isn't the father? Could it be a different dog?


    Lisa mom of 2 humans and 1 Doberman
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Tropicalbri's

    Tropicalbri's $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I am interested to know if she is indeed pregnant. Have you found that out yet?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1

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