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Rescue vs. buying a pup

Discussion in 'Rescue & Adoption' started by GennyB, Mar 24, 2013.

  1. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    @ Crow-RavensDad. I do understand what you are saying. I am just trying to take it to the next level by finding a solution to reducing the amount of dogs that need to be rescued. I think by just resolving yourself to rescue only puts a bandaid on the problem. Just like the the government tries to fix problems by printing money or banning guns. Does that really solve the problem?
    I think AR groups tend to focus on the bad by showing pics and describing awful situations. Encouraging people to rescue instead of using of the funds they generate to encourage people to do the right thing by buying a well bred dog from a responsible breeder. Would that approach not discourage bad breeders. Would it not help to encourage people to use their dogs in a way they are intended? I can only speak from what happens in my house, and here my pets become a member of my family. I want to challenge my family members to be all they can be. In the case of my dogs, would that not be training and working them to be a protector of my family and home?












    Thanks for that. Right or wrong, I have to live with the decision that I made. I do know in my heart that she is grateful that I did save her. But I also know that I can look in her eyes and what I want to see is just not there.
     
  2. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    I agree Paint, I just want something to be done. I support reputable breeders just as much as rescue.

    It all depends on a persons choice to me. Each person wants something different, and reputable breeding and rescue are both viable options.

    In order for all dogs to find good homes we need to all work together. Whether you rescue or not. It doesn't matter, because this is an issue anyone can help on. Even AR activists. When you see a dog in need, spread the word. Social networking makes this incredibly easy now. Donate when you can, foster if you can. It doesn't take much to make a world of a difference for one dog.

    Its time for us to stop playing sides.
    Both reputable breeders/owners, and AR activists have a common goal.

    We want dogs out of shelters.

    I see more and more of focusing on the problem, not the solution.

    All this from a pro C/D guy, that eats beef, supports reputable breeders, and didn't vote for Obama.

    C&R were from a reputable breeder, and which of whom is now one of my best friends. I intend on buying from her in the future, despite what all these "I hate breeders" people say about breeders. I don't play with extremes, no matter what "side" I am on. Everyone needs to focus on the facts. I think if we do that this is an easily conquered issue.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  3. repodhunter

    repodhunter Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    My two cents: I think it should be a personal choice - rescue or buy from a reputable breeder. I had a stranger question why I would purchase a dog from a breeder instead of rescue many years ago....I was taken aback for a moment and to be perfectly honest had to take time to choose my words carefully because my immediate response would not have been very nice at all. I asked her if she had children (she had a small child with her - looked to be her grandchild) - to which she replied she had both children and grandchildren. I asked her if she adopted her children - to which she replied no. I then asked her why she would have children, when there were so many children looking for homes? Now I could tell that she was taken aback....so before she attempted to point out the apples to oranges comparison - I took the opportunity to tell her that I have adopted/taken in both dogs and children in my life and if I chose to purchase a dog from a REPUTABLE breeder, that is my and my family's personal choice and not a strangers business. I was hoping that she would think twice before approaching the next person with her questions.....but who knows.

    paintinsthegame....I think if your girl could talk...she would thank you for showing/giving her love and a wonderful home, something she obviously did not know existed until you came along. I don't think dogs are that much different then us in regards to wanting to live....even with pain...as long as they have someone to love and be loved by........ thus a good life despite the disabilities. When you look into her eyes, even though you cannot see what you want to see in her eyes to reassure you that you made the right choice.....I betchya she is definitely seeing what she wants to see = you = someone who she knows loves her. Thank you for saving your girl!
     
    • Like Like x 8
  4. Archer

    Archer Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Like times one million!! I agree, Paint! Never doubt it. I still cry thinking about the state in which your girl was left. Bless you for charging in and taking her. You are an angel on earth!!

    I think the lady at PetSmart meant well, but feel she was inappropriate in her actions. Confronting you in a public place was rude, and extremely disrespectful. She should have kept her mouth to herself, but in a way I do see where she is coming from. One small voice can make a difference. Just like we want to educate people about the truth of the Doberman temperament, this lady felt the need to express her opinions. Although handled inappropriately IMHO I understand where she is coming from, but you draw more flies with honey. Like a pushy Religious fanatic, she's closing minds and turning people off instead of making people interested in what she has to say.

    I will always have both in my house; purchased and rescued. I find nothing wrong with either and feel it too is a personal preference. The issue I do have is when so called "breeders" charge an exorbitant amount for a designer dog, who in my opinion are just mixed breeds. I have a nurse who just spent over $1,000 on a Goldendoodle when she could have adopted a puppy from a pound or rescue. That to me is ridiculous. I understand that all registered breeds have to start somewhere. Heck, how many times did Mr. Dobermann have to cross breed before he perfected our beloved Dobie? My point is this...buy responsively if you're going to buy or don't buy at all.

    This issue is never going to go away. We will always have pets in need. Because of this I feel the need to adopt/foster lifelong. Until people learn to take responsibility and stop being selfish we will always have an unwanted pet population. For people who can't be responsible with their intact dog...sterilize them. I know what you mean...does our desire to help drive the problem. I don't think so. I think it helps one baby step at a time. Better to be part of the solution than the problem.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  5. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Sorry i honestly was confused as to what dog breed was being referred to as i had never seen Doberman abreivated that way. It was a honest question at least at the time.

    Why would rescuing be a moral issue if rescue is a personal invidual decision?? People who are into well bred dogs for showing and training are not as much into rescue so if that is their thing then I see no reason they should in any way feel responsible for rescuing. If you study rescue vs showing and training you will find that they are diabolically opposed to each other because the rescuers tend to blame breeders as you pointed out and think all breeders and breeding is bad and the show people think rescue folks are opposed to good breeding and lump everything into the puppy mill catagory. A person will follow one or the other and seldom can they walk the fence and successfully do both. I am not referring to a breeder who takes back their own dogs but for breeders it is a question of protecting your dogs from exposure to all kinds of unknowns coming into the property and exposing future puppies and most are not set up with a quarrantine area to guarantee no cross contamination.

    For me when an individual rescues a dog it is to fill a need in their home and heart. Rescue organizations are set up to protect a breed and they are always begging for donations as they have a lot of expense. Again we have organizations set up and if they had enough moeny they could rescue more dogs as opposed to individuals who save one dog while the flood gates are still overflowing.

    Paint was acutally talking about rescuing as in getting a dog and keeping it for a companion for the rest of its life. That is a wonderful thing in and of itself just as Lovmydobes did.

    Then we have rescue organizations that are run under the direction of a board with some level of accountablity.

    Now while I know this does not apply to you CRD it is a possibility that I personally find disturbing as I know a lot of dogs are FREE to a good home when someone wants to dump them on craigs list.

    But here is the challenge I see and PLEASE understand this does not apply to you but it does open up a whole new challenge - Someone gets a dog off craigs list to "rescue" but with the thought of rehoming the dog. They post on a list and get donations to help with medical bills etc and then pocket that money then turn around and sell the dog for ???? and pocket that money. Because it is a rescue they had no expense, no cropping, and if they may or may not actual neuter or spay the dog that they got covered under donations which may or may not have exceeded the actual cost.

    I see it as a whole new scam and way for people who are tight on money making money without much expense. How many people are honest enough to just cover their expenses - then do they send money back to people who donated??? That is why I am opposed to and think people should be very very careful about donating money to indivduals on a list who just have a sad story to tell. Plus most of the time they get reg papers with the dog and can sell it as AKC reg which they can't through a legitamite rescue as the dog will be spayed/neutered first.

    Then there is the problem that if you get expenses covered from dontations do you give the dog away??? I beleive if you give a dog away you take a big chance on it not finding a good home because it has no value. so if they sell it what happens to the rest of the money - who do they have to account to??

    I just think it opens a whole new kettle of worms. Just look at the people who so willingly and generouly open their pocket books. That is how the AR groups have managed to not only survive but thrive off good people who honestly think they are helping.

    Maybe that brings up a whole new thought on rescue - should it be a money making proposition because it could be. There is just so much that the AR groups have done to muddy the waters and confuse JQP who only hears their side of the story in 3 d multi milllion dollar commercials with sad music playing in the background designed to tear your heart out while they pull down million dollar incomes not to mention the money they spend jet setting around the country.

    If this idea takes of then what role will forums play in perputating the problem??? will they be responsible if it does turn out to be a scam or can they be held liable???

    For these reasons I would hate to see the dog forums just become another way for people to ask for donations to cover rescue expense when there are valid org set up for that and they have an accountablity.. heck someone could ask for donations, posting a picture of some dog that they don't even have. While one person might save one dog it might mean that 5 more could have been taken in had the valid rescue had money. So for me that would be a big turn off and opens a big door for problems as I see it.. I may be very wrong but seriously I doubt it. People use all kinds of good things to do bad things.

    I don't think good intentions come from bad actions so for the women to question Paint to me was wrong. It wa snot her right. Rescue is not for everyone and buying reg puppies is not for everyone.

    BUT (quote) I understand that all registered breeds have to start somewhere. Heck, how many times did Mr. Dobermann have to cross breed before he perfected our beloved Dobie? My point is this...buy responsively if you're going to buy or don't buy at all. (/quote)

    Herr doberman had a specific objective - designer dogs are not trying to create a new breed with a specific purpose. they have no purepose except money with s good sounding sales pitch.
     
    • Like Like x 3
  6. dh8

    dh8 Hot Topics Subscriber

    I've always said there I support true quality breeders and rescue. Buying or adopting/rescuing are personal choices, although many people want to develop a list of arguments for either one. Is it fun to get a puppy? Undeniably. Will dogs die if you don't adopt or rescue? Sadly, also undeniable. There are no guarrantees of long healthy life or perfect temperment in the adult on either side. Do you get the same appreciation and acknowledgement for buying as you do for adoption? No and you shouldn't because they are different things and personal choices. That is so hard for some purchasers to accept they lie and say they've adopted and get angry when you ask what shelter.

    I do believe you see more of the true dog's temperment when you see the adult and spend time with them. A pup is somewhat likely to be like the parent, but environment and a confident, involved leader who does all the right things plays the major part in who the dog will develop into temperment wise. I also firmly believe if you are afraid to adopt an adult of a breed, you shouldn't get a puppy of the breed. I've seen many "problem" animals get dumped at shelters (as young as a 7 week old pure, pretty Husky) to young adult where the owner is visibly frightened of their own dog for no reason multiple behaviourists can find.

    I'm a firm believer in it being critical to have a vet with excellent diagnostic skills that you trust not to use your animal like a cash cow. How friendly the vet is comes way down on the list of important things. If I have a dog who isn't doing well or isn't very stable on chronic treatment, I find another vet. When you have medical problems quality diagnostic care gives you the tools to correct the problem. Poor diagnostic skills leads to strings of never ending problems. Bring a rescue dog into such a vet and some are highly likely to blame some unknown mystical harm as a puppy as the reason they can never actually help get the dog well/stable. Once you get to know your quality vet; when you call with a problem you feel is urgent, they get you in that day or the next. I've been in the position of using a new vet after moving and it costing em thousands while the dog continued to suffer. Changed vets and had great, permanent improvement after spending less than $300 on 2 visits.

    Quality professionally bred dogs with all the proper proofs of testing cost a good $2,000+ to start. A rescue dog can go from free or up to $100 to start. They include shots and spay/neuter which can run a few hundred $. Some even include a free vet visit after adoption and free or low cost training classes. The initial cash outlay could go up to curing cancer in some dogs the difference is so great. Still, neither option guarrantees long life or health and both should have at least an untouched thousand or so earmarked for vet bills before you even bring a dog home.

    BYBs are only a slight step above puppymilling in terms of the quality of dog you get. Often they don't even have a business or breeding license/scam on all taxes, dump the pups the second they start on solid food instead of an ideal 10 weeks, steal advertising on Craig's List or others that offer free advertising to adoption only, etc so they can scam every penny they can off everyone. This is where I find most of the problems for the pet owners. Everything from the seller is salespitch and no guarrantee to back up anything. They "love their dogs and raise them with kids" and other nice sounding sales pitches. The buyer starts with the belief they will have a show dog at a discount and not have to pay vet bills at least for a few years. Sadly it's not true on any counts. Buyers never want to admit the discount part but it's always a factor as pups are big purchases. They also have a huge tendency to deny they went to a BYB even when it's obvious. So what? We all make mistakes-just learn from them, don't repeat it and tell other about it to save them fromt he same mistakes.

    I'm in favor of adopting at least one of your pack but if you are set on buying a pup, you should buy a quality bred pup because you'll never be as happy with the adopted one and never treat them exactly the same and have the same expectations you have of the purchased one because they simply aren't what you wanted. Having the same expectations is necessary to have the same outcome in all areas of dog ownership.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  7. Archer

    Archer Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    That's what I was saying in a not so eloquent way. Designer breeds are not bred for specific objectives, but for money. I was just stating that all dogs start off as cross breeds, but for an intended purpose.
     
  8. Quee

    Quee Hot Topics Subscriber

    I think what you said about spending time with the dog - whether the dog you're purchasing or its' parents - is key to a successful life-long pairing. That plus research on the appropriate breed for your family. Unfortunately too many well-meaning but misguided people don't do their homework or take their time in choosing a dog, which results in problems all around. Even though they are not human beings, when you get a dog typically it will become a part of your family in some way, so taking time to do the proper research and choosing wisely is key to avoiding later heartbreak - you probably wouldn't adopt a child unless you did your homework - adoption agencies certainly wouldn't adopt to you if you didn't meet their criteria or show that you know what you're getting into.

    I don't care what problems Pippi has or may have down the road, she's my girl and she will be with me for the rest of her life. I might not feel that way if I had chosen poorly, but I chose the right breed and the right individual dog for me, and the time spent in advance was well worth the effort. I think educating people on how to choose dogs is key to solving at least the problem of abandonment - animal abuse is another story though.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  9. dobex3

    dobex3 Hot Topics Subscriber


    What a perfect response. I applaud you.

    I volunteer with a wonderful animal rescue group called IL Doberman rescue whose members all have their hearts for the pets welfare first and foremost. I am proud to be associated with them and think they do a fantastic job of saving many Dobermans- sick, old and quirky. They also take in other breeds and cats. They do not look to see if the animals will have a fast turn around and cost too much money before adopting out. They take in as many orphans as they can.
    Having said this, many many people involved with this rescue have personal dogs that are rescues, well bred or a mixture of both like my own. I don't think there is a wide of gulf between a rescue mindset and well bred as most people think. We respect the right for each member to make their own mind what dog fits their household. Many people show in Confo with the well bred or do agility/rally with well bred and rescues as well. i think its a damn shame that a stranger thinks they have any right to pass judgement on someone else's life or choices. Personally, I feel theses type of people are the sheep of this world and more the problem (and last ones to be casting judgement upon anyone).

    I have had Doberman as rescues all my life, but have not one ounce of guilt for choosing my puppy (Jax) from a reputable breeder. His looks, temperament, intelligence and attitude exemplifies what I love most about this breed. I picked someones good choices versus someones else greed. I have loved each and every one of my dogs though and probably will always have a mix of well bred and rescue.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  10. Quee

    Quee Hot Topics Subscriber

    That's where I got Pippi from! :D
     
    • Like Like x 3
  11. Quee

    Quee Hot Topics Subscriber

    Outstanding rescue group, and I know a lot of people who live close to me who have adopted Dobies from ILDR+ as well. This is one of those great rescue groups who does their due diligence in adopting out Dobes, and is constantly on the lookout for the dogs they rescue.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. dobex3

    dobex3 Hot Topics Subscriber

    yes, they really are a great rescue group who love and appreciate a well bred Doberman as much as their hearts go to the abandoned Dobermans of this world. I cant say enough good things about this group and their tremendous dedication to the dogs.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  13. Rach

    Rach Hot Topics Subscriber

    I think it's an individual decision to rescue or purchase and I don't feel that anyone has the right to judge or question your decision...
    I think the biggest problem and only answer is in education... Even with all the social media that we have in reference to byb/puppy mills, for the most part, we are still an ignorant nation... Unfortunatly... I have both rescued and purchased from reputable breeders in my life time. Godric came from a reputable breeder and we have been blindsided with medical cost due to his rare eye disease... Where as Tulip for the most part is healthy as a horse and mostly only visits the vet for her yearly check up and vaccinations...

    This is from the National Mill Dog Rescue group on FB
    How is puppy milling different than reputable breeding?

    Puppy mills exist for only one purpose - to make money. In a puppy mill, there may be as many as 30 different breeds and up to 800 or more breeding dogs. Every female is pregnant withevery heat, including their first heat at 6 - 10 months old when they themselves are still a puppy. The puppies receive little to no medical attention, are not socialized with people, are almost always taken from their mothers too young, and often start their lives out in the world sick and scared. There is absolutely no regard to the health and well-being of the breeding dogs and when they can no longer produce puppies, the majority of them are killed.

    Most often, a reputable breeder has great interest in one or perhaps two breeds. The purpose of their breeding program is to continually strive to bring their bloodlines closest to the breed standard. A reputable breeder spends a great deal of time, effort and money showing their dogs, socializing their dogs, having their breeding dogs tested for genetic defects, and being very careful to place their puppies in permanent, loving homes. A reputable breeder will at any time for any reason, take any of the puppies they've bred back into their care for the lifetime of the dog, taking full responsibility for the dogs that they have produced.

    A reputable breeder wants to know about you and develop a relationship with you. They enjoy updates and photographs of their puppies as they grow and are always available to help with any questions or concerns about their puppies. One of the most important things to know is that a reputable breeder has nothing to hide. They want you to meet the parents of the puppies and see the environment the puppies are raised in.

    We believe there are many reputable breeders out there, doing a fine job of raising healthy and sound puppies. Buyers must do their homework - contact the National Breed Clubs and find out who the reputable breeders are. Visit the breeder, meet the parents of the puppies, inspect the environment the puppies were raised in, ask lots of questions and if it feels like they're hiding something, they probably are and you'd be best served to move on.


    I think until we can stop the byb/puppy mills we will always have a need for rescue...
     
    • Like Like x 2
  14. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    It must be in the cosmos since Paint started this thread - but yesterday I got a call from someone wanting to know if I took in Dobes. I said no I was a owner, breeder, handler, trainer. she said she wanted to get rid of her doberman - GAG I sent her to KC doberman rescue I toldher rescues were set up to handle this. It just makes me sick when people use the term "get rid" of like you are throwing out the trash.

    Sadly I get the calls also from someone who has a wonderful stud muffin and wants to know If i want to breed to him - I am sure you can imagine how that conversation goes. GAG
     
    • Like Like x 6
  15. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    I always wish I could be on the other end of the phone when these conversations happen.

    KCDR is very full so hopefully they can do something about that dog.

    Just do a Craigslist search for Dobermans around Kansas and Missouri.

    People could care less about their dogs. I'm glad I was raised to respect a dog as a permanent responsibility no matter what obstacles hit me.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Yes itis sad and is why I don't scan the ads as it would depress me so that i could scream so I focus on what I love - rather than have everyday ruined thinking about the irresponsible who seem to want to throw out dogs

    I thought you were working with the KC rescue??? so would jancie contact you if she needed a foster home???
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    I am just volunteering my services as a foster with them, and then I have them help me when I'm working to find a dobe with a new home. They were instrumental with helping with Jala.

    There is another dobe that they are thinking about having me foster. I haven't heard anything back from Janice yet, but I should soon.

    Hopefully a foster home opens up soon.

    I hate trolling Craigslist, but every now and then I find a unspayed female needing help. That makes it all worth it to me.
     
  18. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    And that is truely the point each has to do what works for them For me it is the beauty of breeding and creating wonderful Dobermans and the joy of sharing their lives with my families - I prefer to focus on training and educating in hopes that through teaching people to be responsible for the dogs they own or might own and in that way it prevents a dog from ever becoming a cast off. Two approaches both work I just prefer to prevent then contributiong to the shelters as the flood gates on the other end seem to be never ending and there are shelters crying for dogs to adopt and the entire rescue system is broken when there are people who want dogs and can't get them and dogs are put to sleep that would have made a great pet.

    If I ever come up with a solution to that one I will have really helped. Until then I will continue to fight to educate the uneducated and help people understand the temperament of the working dog as heaven knows there are far too few who even understand what PUREBRED means.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  19. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    I hope to breed one day. Until then fostering and buying from reputable breeders will work.

    It's sad to see all the dogs on these lists but we also have to recognize the support behind Dobermans.

    When compared to other dogs there are not as many dobes in kill shelters. They get pulled very quickly.
     
  20. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    If we could educate the public about buying responsibily and not support poor breeding practices -
    Teach the importance of a breed standard
    Stop Breeders who are not responsible by taking their own dogs back
    Help people learn the importance of getting off their lazy butts and training and working a dog that is FROM THE WORKING DOG CLASS
    have a way to transport dogs to areas that have families who want a dog
    and if rescues did not make it hard to adopt a rescue than adopt a child
    If everyone who was not showing or training spayed and neutered
    If we taught the importance of responsibility in our schools and homes
    Love and kindness toward all animals

    IF we could solve any of those things then we would make a big step in solving the overall problem. Until then I will just contine to do my part to help educate although i feel that is not working real well either.

    Sadly the AR groups ARE in the schools handing out horrifying posters and focusing on the horror stories rather than educate on responsible animal ownership. Of course they don't want responsible owners. That is not their objective. An if they can convince enough people about how horrible dog owners are then they can stop dog ownership and breeding which is their objective. We can never lay down with the enemy. We must wake up and realize that they have no good objective - Wolves in sheep clothing They are out to destory the purebred dog world first and then all dog or animal ownership period.
     

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