Kswoodssue
Hot Topics Subscriber
Pinscher Doodle? Sounds scandalous!There's already one: The Doodleman Pinscher.
Recent uk news re banning American xl bullies and your thoughts?
- Thread starter Dobielurcher
- Start date
Kaiser2016
Well-Known Member
Wow those are some ugly mutts!
I had to scroll a bit to find these ones which are barely better looking
I had to scroll a bit to find these ones which are barely better looking
It's a big fat NOPE for me.
It is surprising to me that in so many crosses of any breed the Doberman seems to always stand out. Evidently hair coat of poodles is extremely dominant. Unless of course they are only advertising the ones that look poodle-ly.
They need cropped ears.Wow those are some ugly mutts!
View attachment 138185
I had to scroll a bit to find these ones which are barely better looking
View attachment 138186
I have come to be curious about this. I'm very much a layman on genetics, but could this be because the gene pool is relatively small in the Doberman, or because like copies of DNA have been combined in the Doberman so many times that they express themselves more than that of other breeds when the breeds are mixed? Again, the thoughts of one uneducated on genetics.
I really don't know - because 50% should still be 50%, a coin flip on what the cross comes out looking like. But all the Dobe crosses we see on this small forum, or in the shelters or on the street, look SO much like a doberman!
Yes, I lived with a standard poodle for several years (belonged to my ex) and they are very much like a Doberman in mannerisms, closeness, intelligence, energy - everything except the protectiveness/watchful/suspiciousness. If you shaved then to the skin they would look just like a Dobe in profile except the muzzle is a little finer.
Now I pronounce us severely off topic.
Ukesox
$ Forum Donor $
It seems to me that there’s been a huge change in attitudes recent times. Maybe I just wasn’t paying attention, but when did what was generally considered to be an accident (i.e next doors poodle & my (…..fill in the blank) got it together & “oh no, now I’ve got a cross breed litter”) become “hey I’ve invented a cool new breed”?
kaloric
Well-Known Member
This is a tough one, especially since Dobermans have been the object of breed-specific distrust and discrimination.
That said, though, this isn't simply a matter of how a dog is raised or trained. Temperament is not trained, only behavior is trained. Temperament can be managed through training, but still has a way of showing through any cracks in the facade of being a well-behaved family pet.
It's the temperaments of the various bull-baiting, bear-hunting, LVGs, and other breeds that were bred to fight with animals that will fight back that are their size or larger that are of concern, proven again and again that there are just too many risks when they're kept as pets by average folks, especially when they have not had appropriate behavior inhibition training. Bull terriers weren't even a super huge concern when I volunteered at a shelter many, many years ago, it was the Chow-chows and especially Chow mixes that seemed to be everywhere and had a way of capturing headlines due to being great dogs for years and then seemingly turning on their owners/family members out of the blue.
These dogs were bred to fight and kill with no regard to their own well-being and regardless of whether there's even a threat in the first place. They are prone to red-zoning to the degree that the only reasonable intervention when they are on-target is to kill them. Restricted breeds are almost all these types. It happens again and again that they turn on their owners and other people who should probably be considered part of their "pack," and they go after random people such as the 93-year-old woman killed in her own home by her neighbor's escaped Cane Corsos. Another woman in Argentina was killed by her own two dogs in her home earlier this month, the breeds were not specified. That type of temperament was actively selected for so long, it's very hard to say if it could be reliably bred-out of the breeds, especially as long as there are bad people who continue to pursue those traits because they engage in dogfighting and other illegal activities.
Yes, I realize that pitties have historically been considered "nanny dogs," it's a matter of how much risk we're willing to accept. Some cities are just done with the problems and think BSL will help. Some, like Aurora Colorado, have rolled-back BSL because it only resulted in the deaths of hundreds of bull terriers that were surrendered or confiscated at the start of the ban a few decades ago, but the ban didn't actually solve the problems. Westword performed some excellent, in-depth journalism on what happened when the ban was implemented, in addition to many follow-ups and related stores over the years, including many in the past few years leading-up to the repeal of the ban. Be aware, some of their articles depicted leaked photos of dozens upon dozens of dogs that were killed at shelters and piled-up like cordwood. They are disturbing and heartbreaking to say the least, so maybe don't dig too deep into the related stories (the saddest one doesn't seem to be a functional link anymore). It's as @Rits mentioned, if one breed is banned, another breed will become the problem, and bad folks just ignore the ban anyway.
I guess my point is that training can amplify or attenuate the riskiest temperament components, but that's still what it comes down to, in addition to a dog's ability to inflict physical damage. Nobody cares about awful temperament in Chis or other tiny dogs, after all. Bad owners are part of the problem. Violent temperaments are part of the problem, and, unfortunately, there isn't consistency within breeds or even accurate ways to evaluate a dog to see if it's a completely safe nanny dog or a hair-trigger killer that might turn on its own someday. Good owners can't eliminate temperament-based risks altogether. It's just a risky situation that comes down to personal decisions and personal responsibility.
For what it's worth, I do trust Dobes and other protection/herding dogs such as GSDs, and even Mals to an extent, being aware that they're popular police and military dogs now because they'll follow commands fairly blindly and don't bond as closely to specific handlers (being more attack-on-command dogs than traditional protection dogs). Even though personal protection dogs were selected to fight and protect, they've had a lot more focus placed on a balance of sharpness and cognition in which they'll evaluate potential threats before acting rather than running around causing mayhem like a loose cannon. Junkyard dog Dobes, if they ever were as bad as old movies would have one believe, would probably be a bit of a risk, but I can't say I've ever met someone who was around Dobes in the 70s & 80s who thought they were all that much different. Stable temperaments and more suitable for working, yes, but not aggressive crazed killer dogs.
That said, though, this isn't simply a matter of how a dog is raised or trained. Temperament is not trained, only behavior is trained. Temperament can be managed through training, but still has a way of showing through any cracks in the facade of being a well-behaved family pet.
It's the temperaments of the various bull-baiting, bear-hunting, LVGs, and other breeds that were bred to fight with animals that will fight back that are their size or larger that are of concern, proven again and again that there are just too many risks when they're kept as pets by average folks, especially when they have not had appropriate behavior inhibition training. Bull terriers weren't even a super huge concern when I volunteered at a shelter many, many years ago, it was the Chow-chows and especially Chow mixes that seemed to be everywhere and had a way of capturing headlines due to being great dogs for years and then seemingly turning on their owners/family members out of the blue.
These dogs were bred to fight and kill with no regard to their own well-being and regardless of whether there's even a threat in the first place. They are prone to red-zoning to the degree that the only reasonable intervention when they are on-target is to kill them. Restricted breeds are almost all these types. It happens again and again that they turn on their owners and other people who should probably be considered part of their "pack," and they go after random people such as the 93-year-old woman killed in her own home by her neighbor's escaped Cane Corsos. Another woman in Argentina was killed by her own two dogs in her home earlier this month, the breeds were not specified. That type of temperament was actively selected for so long, it's very hard to say if it could be reliably bred-out of the breeds, especially as long as there are bad people who continue to pursue those traits because they engage in dogfighting and other illegal activities.
Yes, I realize that pitties have historically been considered "nanny dogs," it's a matter of how much risk we're willing to accept. Some cities are just done with the problems and think BSL will help. Some, like Aurora Colorado, have rolled-back BSL because it only resulted in the deaths of hundreds of bull terriers that were surrendered or confiscated at the start of the ban a few decades ago, but the ban didn't actually solve the problems. Westword performed some excellent, in-depth journalism on what happened when the ban was implemented, in addition to many follow-ups and related stores over the years, including many in the past few years leading-up to the repeal of the ban. Be aware, some of their articles depicted leaked photos of dozens upon dozens of dogs that were killed at shelters and piled-up like cordwood. They are disturbing and heartbreaking to say the least, so maybe don't dig too deep into the related stories (the saddest one doesn't seem to be a functional link anymore). It's as @Rits mentioned, if one breed is banned, another breed will become the problem, and bad folks just ignore the ban anyway.
I guess my point is that training can amplify or attenuate the riskiest temperament components, but that's still what it comes down to, in addition to a dog's ability to inflict physical damage. Nobody cares about awful temperament in Chis or other tiny dogs, after all. Bad owners are part of the problem. Violent temperaments are part of the problem, and, unfortunately, there isn't consistency within breeds or even accurate ways to evaluate a dog to see if it's a completely safe nanny dog or a hair-trigger killer that might turn on its own someday. Good owners can't eliminate temperament-based risks altogether. It's just a risky situation that comes down to personal decisions and personal responsibility.
For what it's worth, I do trust Dobes and other protection/herding dogs such as GSDs, and even Mals to an extent, being aware that they're popular police and military dogs now because they'll follow commands fairly blindly and don't bond as closely to specific handlers (being more attack-on-command dogs than traditional protection dogs). Even though personal protection dogs were selected to fight and protect, they've had a lot more focus placed on a balance of sharpness and cognition in which they'll evaluate potential threats before acting rather than running around causing mayhem like a loose cannon. Junkyard dog Dobes, if they ever were as bad as old movies would have one believe, would probably be a bit of a risk, but I can't say I've ever met someone who was around Dobes in the 70s & 80s who thought they were all that much different. Stable temperaments and more suitable for working, yes, but not aggressive crazed killer dogs.
@kaloric , a very thoughtful and extensive writeup. Great points, and great thoughts.
Yeah, apparently there was a pit bull ban in Cincinnati up until just a couple years or so before we moved here.
I will say this though: The idea of a dog eventually turning on its owner or family sounds too all familiar
Yeah, apparently there was a pit bull ban in Cincinnati up until just a couple years or so before we moved here.
I will say this though: The idea of a dog eventually turning on its owner or family sounds too all familiar
LifeofRubie
Well-Known Member
I'll hate on doodles for a minute with y'all
When "doodle craze" started, we had a delightful conversation with a lady who was LIVID. She likes WHY are they breeding Labs and Goldens with Poodles and calling it something new!? It already exists: Lagotto Romagnolo (which is the breed she had).
I'm sure it's a combination of "advertising" (hey, no shedding hair) and availability and people just.not.knowing.
I follow a few dog groomers on IG and I can't tell you how many times they post video's of a doodle owner bringing in their dog once a year and the poor thing is just mats up and down (because people don't understand the care required for a coat like that OR get pissed when it's hundreds of dollars to maintain regularly). Then the owner get's pissed they had to do a full body shave.
Our neighbors bought a "Mini Bernadoodle" a while back. She's as tall as Rubie! Guess that might be mini for a Bernese but probably not what they were imagining.
Our friends actually have a mini doodle something at about 11lbs. I'm like congrats, you have a Bichon.
Yes, a few doodle observations:
I see a lot of tall doodles! It's not at all uncommon. A lot of them seem to be over 28". I'm sure early spay/neuter adds to this, but it's really something. Maybe it's the Old English Shepherd blood and the Bernese Mountain Dob blood. Maybe it's just breeders breeding for bigger is better. There's a very tall doodle just several houses away. I used to call him Nemesis because he and Oji would exchange defensive barking as they walked past each others' houses. My daughter, who has been shaped by all she intakes into a big animal rights person, scolded me for calling him Nemesis so he became Big Fluff. He even has a jingle. It goes: "Big Fluff" "He's Big Fluff". He's fairly dominant and has thus far made sure he tries to put Zephyr in his place up at the park.
@LifeofRubie , have you seen the IG person called something like The Girl With The Dogs ? I don't follow her, but if I see a breed I'd like to look at for a minute, I may tune in.
There's another tall Doodle named Ollie and he seems to have loose stools often. He walks along as he poops, and may get the mess onto his fur back there. No thanks. If I had a doodle, I might shave it back there like they do Black Russian Terriers.
I see a lot of tall doodles! It's not at all uncommon. A lot of them seem to be over 28". I'm sure early spay/neuter adds to this, but it's really something. Maybe it's the Old English Shepherd blood and the Bernese Mountain Dob blood. Maybe it's just breeders breeding for bigger is better. There's a very tall doodle just several houses away. I used to call him Nemesis because he and Oji would exchange defensive barking as they walked past each others' houses. My daughter, who has been shaped by all she intakes into a big animal rights person, scolded me for calling him Nemesis so he became Big Fluff. He even has a jingle. It goes: "Big Fluff" "He's Big Fluff". He's fairly dominant and has thus far made sure he tries to put Zephyr in his place up at the park.
@LifeofRubie , have you seen the IG person called something like The Girl With The Dogs ? I don't follow her, but if I see a breed I'd like to look at for a minute, I may tune in.
There's another tall Doodle named Ollie and he seems to have loose stools often. He walks along as he poops, and may get the mess onto his fur back there. No thanks. If I had a doodle, I might shave it back there like they do Black Russian Terriers.
LifeofRubie
Well-Known Member
I've not seen that account in my IG wanderings!
DD4MSpock
Hot Topics Subscriber
Just seeing this thread, now.
First, to clarify, I assume that an XL Bully is just "eXtra Large" Bully, correct? Sorry I just didn't know. Presently, I'm used to seeing very small bullies (mostly "Frenchies") as I'm also following a Youtube channel called "Griffin Frenchie." It's about two Frenchies that live in South Korea named "Griffin" and "Haru," as well as their human baby sister, Sienna Lee (cute as a button)! And it's had my close attention recently as, within the last 1/2 year, Haru has gone through a very bad case of Stage 5 IVDD that resulted in 3 herniated discs and required a 3.5 hour surgery. The surgery was successful, apparently, and she is on the road to recovery... perhaps a bit faster than they thought.
At any rate, I feel for those who maybe affected by the bans and who deal with bias against "dangerous" dogs. As you may recall, I had issues with most Florida based home owners insurers who have "dangerous breeds" lists and won't allow said dogs in the home. Of course, our beloved dobie is on almost all of those lists. At least State Farm (my current company) goes by "bite history" and not a standardized list. But i don't know how long they're going to stay in FL. or if their updated rates for 2024 will price me out.
I firmly believe that behavior in dogs is much more "nurture" than "nature." I believe that training, socializing and all of that comes into play. I've never had any trouble, of course, with the dobies in my life. And I've actually been able to meet some pitties and I never had any issues with them.
It's funny. My next door neighbor acquired a terrier mix of some kind (in the "Jack Russel" range), Similar size but feisty as all get out. I recall when we were first introduced. He was barking up like a storm. But I approached him slowly and held out my hand for him to sniff (knowing I could pull it back if he came after me), and he sniffed it (and me) and let me handshake his paw. In the next few encounters, he'd start off barking, but once I got close enough for him to recognize me, he'd stop barking and damn near pulled his owner closer to me in order to let me pet him. Now, whenever he sees me he just pulls his owner closer for a petting session, but like he's trying to grab on to my arm to lick it or whatever. Not aggressive at all, although it might look that way. The only problem being, he needs to have his nails done as his "arm slobbering" can get a tad scratchy. I almost worry about him sliding all over the place as his "pad traction" might be suffering a bit. I also worry that he may be outgrowing his owner and be too strong for him. The owner is a 60'something senior and it just seems like he struggles a bit to keep him under control when walking.
Doodleman Pinscher? Seriously???
When I saw that, I dunno why but my first thought was of the V1 "Doodlebomb" rocket of WWII. Sheesh!
I mean, I'm just getting used to "Labradoodles/GoldenDoodles" and the "Cockapoo," etc. Not "Doodleman....." PLEASE!
First, to clarify, I assume that an XL Bully is just "eXtra Large" Bully, correct? Sorry I just didn't know. Presently, I'm used to seeing very small bullies (mostly "Frenchies") as I'm also following a Youtube channel called "Griffin Frenchie." It's about two Frenchies that live in South Korea named "Griffin" and "Haru," as well as their human baby sister, Sienna Lee (cute as a button)! And it's had my close attention recently as, within the last 1/2 year, Haru has gone through a very bad case of Stage 5 IVDD that resulted in 3 herniated discs and required a 3.5 hour surgery. The surgery was successful, apparently, and she is on the road to recovery... perhaps a bit faster than they thought.
At any rate, I feel for those who maybe affected by the bans and who deal with bias against "dangerous" dogs. As you may recall, I had issues with most Florida based home owners insurers who have "dangerous breeds" lists and won't allow said dogs in the home. Of course, our beloved dobie is on almost all of those lists. At least State Farm (my current company) goes by "bite history" and not a standardized list. But i don't know how long they're going to stay in FL. or if their updated rates for 2024 will price me out.
I firmly believe that behavior in dogs is much more "nurture" than "nature." I believe that training, socializing and all of that comes into play. I've never had any trouble, of course, with the dobies in my life. And I've actually been able to meet some pitties and I never had any issues with them.
It's funny. My next door neighbor acquired a terrier mix of some kind (in the "Jack Russel" range), Similar size but feisty as all get out. I recall when we were first introduced. He was barking up like a storm. But I approached him slowly and held out my hand for him to sniff (knowing I could pull it back if he came after me), and he sniffed it (and me) and let me handshake his paw. In the next few encounters, he'd start off barking, but once I got close enough for him to recognize me, he'd stop barking and damn near pulled his owner closer to me in order to let me pet him. Now, whenever he sees me he just pulls his owner closer for a petting session, but like he's trying to grab on to my arm to lick it or whatever. Not aggressive at all, although it might look that way. The only problem being, he needs to have his nails done as his "arm slobbering" can get a tad scratchy. I almost worry about him sliding all over the place as his "pad traction" might be suffering a bit. I also worry that he may be outgrowing his owner and be too strong for him. The owner is a 60'something senior and it just seems like he struggles a bit to keep him under control when walking.
Doodleman Pinscher? Seriously???
When I saw that, I dunno why but my first thought was of the V1 "Doodlebomb" rocket of WWII. Sheesh!
I mean, I'm just getting used to "Labradoodles/GoldenDoodles" and the "Cockapoo," etc. Not "Doodleman....." PLEASE!
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Actually, I think I've seen vids from her on you toob, along with the typical sensational headlines like "HUGE Dog..." or "VICIOUS..."
The American Bully is a newer breed. I know the term "Bully" gets used an awful lot to describe a number of breeds. Heck, even Bullmastiff owners call their dogs "Bullies".
There are a handful of "types" of American Bullies (mostly describing different sizes). Coincidentally, I saw on my social media feed a post from a page about Am. Bullies that laid out the different types. They include: Pocket, Classic?, Standard, Extreme, and XL. The XL is the tallest, but is still probably only 24" or 25" for males.
DD4MSpock
Hot Topics Subscriber
Ah, OK. I just Googled the breed and came up with a "Dogumentary TV" video on them American Bully 101. They do kinda look like pitties, but the head shape is different, etc.
StateOfMine
Hot Topics Subscriber
Everything you need to know about bully breeds in less than 17 minutes
No that's not what that youtube video is called, but this trainer trains protection and bite sport dogs. He breeds his own line, trains them and sells them. You will not like his attitude towards dobermans, though he is working on training a few. He thinks they are soft worthless push-overs (lol) but he is spot on with bully breeds.
The "nanny dog" crap is a myth. If every person who claimed to be a pitbull advocate would talk about them like this guy, they'd be doing the breed far more favors than "my pittie/bully/whatever wouldn't hurt a fly" then have a stupid shocked look on their face when that family pet eats a kid.
Sorry, I was originally from the Southern US where they are bred out of control and a whopping 80% of bullies are loose cannons with high prey drive. I don't have a good outlook on bully breeds and their statistics speak for themselves.
Source of photo from the Doberman Planet site, Are dobermans dangerous?
I know it makes the average doberman owner feel like a hypocrite to have certain feelings about another dangerous breed, but don't feel that way. Dobermans are more stable than pit bulls and don't have an extensive (and constantly recurring) history of mauling children. Every dog attack in the news is pitbulls. And its not due to their jaw strength, as dobermans bite harder and so do many other dogs. They're just bad dogs in my opinion, and restricted ownership or outright bans I'd be fine with. I'm sick of dumb owners getting these powerful breeds under mountains of misinformation about them,, throwing them on a chain out back until they're ready to give the dog any attention, then have a bewildered expression when that pitbull snaps and kills someone.
Stop lying about the damn things. They are bred to kill animals. They will kill animals. Educate yourself, everyone around you and be honest about what the hell they are.
Done with my rant.
No that's not what that youtube video is called, but this trainer trains protection and bite sport dogs. He breeds his own line, trains them and sells them. You will not like his attitude towards dobermans, though he is working on training a few. He thinks they are soft worthless push-overs (lol) but he is spot on with bully breeds.
The "nanny dog" crap is a myth. If every person who claimed to be a pitbull advocate would talk about them like this guy, they'd be doing the breed far more favors than "my pittie/bully/whatever wouldn't hurt a fly" then have a stupid shocked look on their face when that family pet eats a kid.
Sorry, I was originally from the Southern US where they are bred out of control and a whopping 80% of bullies are loose cannons with high prey drive. I don't have a good outlook on bully breeds and their statistics speak for themselves.
Source of photo from the Doberman Planet site, Are dobermans dangerous?
I know it makes the average doberman owner feel like a hypocrite to have certain feelings about another dangerous breed, but don't feel that way. Dobermans are more stable than pit bulls and don't have an extensive (and constantly recurring) history of mauling children. Every dog attack in the news is pitbulls. And its not due to their jaw strength, as dobermans bite harder and so do many other dogs. They're just bad dogs in my opinion, and restricted ownership or outright bans I'd be fine with. I'm sick of dumb owners getting these powerful breeds under mountains of misinformation about them,, throwing them on a chain out back until they're ready to give the dog any attention, then have a bewildered expression when that pitbull snaps and kills someone.
Stop lying about the damn things. They are bred to kill animals. They will kill animals. Educate yourself, everyone around you and be honest about what the hell they are.
Done with my rant.
Kswoodssue
Hot Topics Subscriber
No no no!!!Wow those are some ugly mutts!
View attachment 138185
I had to scroll a bit to find these ones which are barely better looking
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