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POOF...look MA

Discussion in 'Training & Behavior' started by BamMoMoMommy, Jan 2, 2020.

  1. BamMoMoMommy

    BamMoMoMommy $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    I'm untrained!!

    SO I have spent about 14 of the last 24 hours poking around the site looking for some ideas on how to out smart a smarty pants who is suddenly displaying a very rebellious streak. I've picked up some awesome information...learned some tips that I think are going to be helpful.....but I am still grasping at getting to the root and working out from there.

    Not our first dobe...but by far our most strong willed...and we have an inkling we aren't dealing with a pure bred...we suspect we may be dealing a bit of hound, maybe heeler....some of the traits he is exhibiting now.....remind me of the coon hounds and heelers that were around when I was a dairy farm kid....or maybe I am projecting and really just desperately grasping here.
    Waiting on DNA results....maybe that will have a clue or nine in it.

    Back story:
    For the last 16-17 months our lives have been a lot of traveling from the same two spots...back and forth every few days...about a four hour drive...the boys basically had two homes.
    About four weeks ago.....all that came to a halt (Thank you Lord!!!) I commented in another thread....the boys knew the route so well...they "knew" when we were coming up on a stopping post, such as a rest area or Ma's coffee stop at Luv's. They knew this was their chance to hop out and stretch/pee/get a drink and treat...they knew this so well (mainly Bam the rebel without a clue!!) that they have what we call their "GPS whine"....in this case GPS means:
    Gotta PEE! STOP!!!!

    End of Nov we made that last run..south to north......about a week later...Bam just went full out
    "You aren't the boss of me!!" rebel on us.
    He's always been strong willed but we had the pack order established and tho he would push buttons.....he would back down when we pushed back.
    He's not "off leash trained" since he can't be off leash in our area, by law. This wasn't an issue for him/us..he was a "let me see if I can get by with it this time"tugger...but responded to correction....now.....it is a tug-o-war every time we got out for a walk.

    The dog park used to "hit the gate and lets play fetch."
    Now it's like dropping a tweener kid off at the mall...he can't leave us in his dust fats enough and he ain't coming back til he is just flat out dead dog tired. (No pun intended)
    Previously it was a matter of saying
    "Alright boys, load up we are going home" he would come to the gate to have his leash put on."

    Now he's on a 35 lead...in the dog park cuz he will run until he can't a breathe and he refuses to acknowledge the come command.

    We use a flat collar when he is on walk lead...he has a martingale and we have used an E-collar.

    We don't use a slip collar/chain..he came to us with what the vet termed a "compromised trachea"..he is prone to a bad cough when we use a slip collar.

    Okay..so there it is..the basic..no doubt more will come to me.

    I'm not thin skinned, I don't get my panties wadded easy...so throw your best at me, questions, ideas, musings...even if it is to point out what I am getting wrong.

    I don't doubt my skills as a trainer or a responsible owner...but I am smart enough to know my own limits (husband feels same way) and not to proud to beg for help when all else fails!!

    Bam will be five in Sept.....we have another Dobeguy...MoMo (Six in June)who is as laid back as laid back can get...no issues with S.A.S. ever (both neutered) None of this seems to have MoMo the least bit rattled...as long as mom stays with the routine established.....he's groovy...thank goodness...not sure I can handle two rebelling at the same time...I have no doubt they'd go full blown mutiny on me..and find a way to make me walk a Plank right into the Mighty Mississippi!!
    • Like Like x 1
  2. Ddski5

    Ddski5 Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Got my attention...
    • Like Like x 1
    • Funny Funny x 1
  3. BamMoMoMommy

    BamMoMoMommy $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    Ha;).....is it cuz you are interested in the topic....or here to watch the crazy red hair lady with the two red hair dogs....do this:

    • Funny Funny x 3
  4. BamMoMoMommy

    BamMoMoMommy $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    I knew I was gonna think of something else.

    We don't use the martingale for anything but transfer....since I use the slip part of the collar as a handle...more often then not tho..with Bam..I use his flat collar set high on his neck and a short tab leash....we we do a transfer from Jeep to vet door or daycare door....where I need him close and controlled.
  5. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Well dang. I'll have to see in the coming few days if I have time to dig into this. You're more than qualified as a dog trainer it seems, so this will take some thought.
    • Like Like x 1
  6. obbanner

    obbanner $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    At 5 years old, it's a substantial degree of habit to break and won't happen overnight. You have to practice every day in at least one short session for probably many months before getting somewhat reliable results. You also have to ensure he obeys any command at any time even when you're just lazing around the house because he needs to learn your word is law. Even if you say get off the couch, make sure he gets off the couch when you say it.

    My last three dogs were two females and an intact male that wasn't terribly headstrong, so I've been spoiled the past decade. I now have a one year 8 month very headstrong intact male AJ.

    My progress with AJ is coming along. He's still not reliable off lead, but is learning. He's trained to competition obedience level, but that's not outside in the wild level. I'm at the point when I give a HERE command when I have no way of reinforcing it, he looks towards what he wants to do, but then turns and comes to me. AJ should be further along considering his age, but I had medical issues since last January that prevented me working with him as much as I should.

    Teach the HERE command (or whatever word you use as long as you're consistent) with him on a long line and a prong collar. When he starts wandering away ignoring you, simultaneously sharply jerk the line and reel him in if necessary while giving command HERE authoritatively. I stick out my right hand palm towards the dog so the dog has a target when I say HERE. Don't take any nonsense. When he gets close enough to touch, praise him and reward him (treat or play). Repeat, repeat, repeat.

    Once he gets the idea that HERE is a command and not a suggestion, then if you have a fenced yard and an e-collar, you can do the same thing in your yard. When he's off sniffing or doing whatever dogs enjoy doing, give him a HERE command to get him to come to you. If you have to repeat the command, give his collar a nick a millisecond before you say HERE. (You want to give the nick a millisecond before the command. If the dog hears the command and mentally decides to obey it, then gets a nick, that's very counterproductive.)

    Good luck!
    • Agree Agree x 2
  7. BamMoMoMommy

    BamMoMoMommy $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    I appreciate it. I'm a "modification/speed junkie" and as silly as this might sound...I have learned from by "go faster board buddies" that sometimes spit balling the idea with others who have the same thing they are working to modify....the ideas of all will eventually collectively flow into a solution...and welllllll......I kinda have the reverse going on here..I need to modify this Americanized version of my German Velcro critter..I need to figure out how to put a governor on his speed racer rear and slow down his idle....and I have no clue where to find his timing belt.

    And uhhh..~palm/face~

    Make this:

    (Dyslexic of the world..UNTIE!!)

    We have worked with a trainer, with both guys in the past (training always went well..both boy were quick studies and the training "took")
    One thing we are always asked when we board them, take them to day care...etc.... about if if we see any same sex aggression..and never....in the years they have been with us. No food aggression...they are both great about respecting each others turf at food time.
    We have never had any issues with jealousy. They rough house and can get pretty loud with each other...but they know "BREAK!" (BRAKE?) and will back off each other...in fact I am so comfortable with the way they play..if they are getting a bit to wild...I can get between them and even go so far as to slip my hand in their mouths.
    No..I don't recommended this unless you KNOW how your dogs will respond and unless you know you can handle a possible bite without going into a panic mode. My husband starts early teaching our dogs..WE CAN AND WILL put our hands in their mouths any time we please.....so this isn't a foreign notion for the boys.

    Okay so..here I am grasping straws again...throwing info out there hoping someone will spot something that resonates and can offer up something to try.

    My husband told me earlier I am taking this too personally...he might be right...but I can not stop trying to get this right for Bam (and MoMo) since the other options are just not acceptable....any other resolution will rip my heart right out of my chest.

    (And this is where my husband would say..
    "Good grief..Drama Queen much there?":angelic:)
  8. BamMoMoMommy

    BamMoMoMommy $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    obbanner, thank you. I'm making mini cliff notes here in a note book...I have never used a prong collar...but yes...I have been doing the research on them and yes....I'll be investing in one tomorrow.
    The most maddening part of all this.....there are skills he has/has had for three and a half years....but for some reason...*shakes head* he has just stopped responding when outside the house/yard.

    I "think"...he is getting enough exercise and stimulation....they get at least two 30-40 minute walks a day.....and weather permitting they can get one..most days two......park runs.....average 45 minutes per trip.

    I work from home...so he's with me all the time. They get four hours at a day care...at least once a week to keep them social( we have a phenomenal day care near us....they never have more than five dogs at a time in the play yard and they have two attendants for every five dogs.)

    They go with us...and until he started this goofy stuff...they would get out on lead, go into the pet store, Tractor Supply, Home Depot.....and Bam is a constant happy dancer...but responds to correction....well did....right now I wouldn't dare take him out into public spaces until I know he's back to the guy he was.

    I feel like I broke my dog!!
    • Like Like x 1
  9. BamMoMoMommy

    BamMoMoMommy $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    OH! Couple more things (do I seem desperate yet?)

    As soon as he started this we did make a bee line to the vet for a check up. Nothing was "vet inspected evident". His cognitive skills in the office....fine.
    (Forget desperate..I may be proving the car sales guy right...about being an O.C.D helicopter mommy with my guys.)

    The flat collar with short tab.....isn't because I feel like I need to have THAT much control over him....that's due to the fact years ago......one of my dobe pups was charged by a Mastiff coming out of the back of the vet office...the pup panicked and froze in place...four feet out from me....fortunately the owner managed to keep the Mastiff from getting a hold of my pup...but from that point on....I have always kept my guys tucked close to me in this type of enviroment.
  10. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    And his hearing was okay?
    • Like Like x 3
  11. BamMoMoMommy

    BamMoMoMommy $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    Yep.....hearing was fine. And I haven't noticed anything that would indicate he is having issues with his ears or his hearing.
  12. Doberman Gang

    Doberman Gang Hot Topics Subscriber

    So lots of stuff to read here and kind of all over the place in the discussion but what I am gathering is you don’t trust your dog off leash at the park because you dog won’t come to you. If this is correct, I will ask you Whatvis your dogs motivation to want to come to you? Have you played with him to make your self have value? I recommend to the people that train with me that they play tug or ball with their dog on a long line, then encourage them to bring the toy back to initiate play with them. Once you are playing, and can let go of the toy, then your dog immediately pushes the toy back at you for more play then you have something, you are now motivation for your dog. Attention to you always starts the game or play.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. BamMoMoMommy

    BamMoMoMommy $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    Until about three weeks ago, his recall was great.....I was his motivation, playing at the park and in the yard at home he was eager to please and play....same goes with walks.

    Now days he's on a lead at the park because we are starting back at square one with training...going back to reinforce what was there...until went rebel on us...and no..right now I do not trust him off lead, even at the fenced dog park...off lead he will run until he is about to collapse, his focus is gone, no amount of attempts to redirect him, to slow him down has worked.

    He's got favorite park toys and he is very food motivated but at this point in time...none of these are working...and I am out of ideas to get that focus back.
  14. LifeofRubie

    LifeofRubie Active Member

    practice practice practice along with all the reinforcement.

    My Dobe has better recall with me than with my husband because... I practice. It doesn't even feel like practice for her. We have a fenced in yard so a few times a week, I'll load up my pockets with treats and literally just randomly call both dogs to me and reward and release when they come. "COME" Means sit in front of me. Get treat. "OK" means you are free to go back to whatever you were doing. When we did not have a fenced yard, my Dobe was on a long lead and come still meant come or there would be a correction. There's no reason for her to be off leash but if she is, she has an eCollar on.

    What I've seen often at dog parks is people only call their dogs when it's time to leave. So they learn that "COME" means the fun is over. Even if he starts making progress, don't give him the freedom of off-leash to blow you off.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. BamMoMoMommy

    BamMoMoMommy $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    I mean to add thank you for the input......it is appreciated.
    And yes....all over the map...cuz this isn't "an issue" it's several things going on....and my mind is all over the map..as I am trying to make sense of what brought on the change...and I worry what kind of spill over affect this might have with the dynamic between Bam and Mo.

    This is the first time I have ever had two dogs at the same time......so I am on the lookout foe that "spill over" on the Mo...so far....we don't see any...but I'd rather be ahead of the curve with all this...then behind it and playing catch up.
  16. BamMoMoMommy

    BamMoMoMommy $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    Thanks for the input....again...so much appreciated.

    At the park is where we drove home the skill set of command obedience......they aren't allowed to run wild...cuz my comfort zone was in knowing I could get them to obey in an open space away from home.

    That's always been the routine....daily...and now days...we are back to square one like he's a squishy brained pup.

    (And yeah..I get the "dogs just don't come untrained.....the owner is screwing up"...and I'll own that 100%...I just don't know what I did....so I don't know how to fix it!!)
  17. Tropicalbri's

    Tropicalbri's $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I am sensing his behavior has a psychological aspect that may have something to do with a change in your travel routine. His mind may be geared to the months of scheduled travel and that routine has changed. He may be trying to understand the change and finds it confusing, creating a bit of instability in what he saw as a norm and now is out of the norm. Dobermans tend to be OCD about things and it’s a cycle that requires intervention to correct.

    Sounds like training may need to be approached a bit differently and started from the basics. It won’t be quick or easy but seems to be necessary. I would spend a lot of time one on one with Bam with mental exercises, training, reward and play.

    What flea and tick treatment are you using? Some products will cause neurological responses that are obvious and other responses that are not.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. BamMoMoMommy

    BamMoMoMommy $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    That was something my husband and I were talking about last night! It's like now that things have settled....some sort of odd boredom has set in on him. He's always loved to ride....and he still gets to ride....I pretty much take them everywhere I go.....the rides now are just minutes..compared to hours.

    k9 advantexII
    This crossed my mind also..since we live in the Mississippi Delta region the boys don't get the winter break of no flea/tick meds....but vet says he sees nothing neurological in the physical exam. He even had me check the application date on Bam to the time frame of when this bull headed stuff started...and it was about two weeks out from the last application date...so vet felt it was far enough out that it wasn't a reaction to the application.

    And thus my over the top rambles here...LOL....Bam is making me feel like I never had a clue about working with these Velcro critters.

    Thank much for the input...spit balling is what's gonna get this figured out!!
  19. BamMoMoMommy

    BamMoMoMommy $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    Back to this...if you have any suggestion to discuss with our vet...I'm on it.
  20. Kaiser2016

    Kaiser2016 Active Member

    I agree with this. I can understand if you’re going through the Doberteen stage that he would ‘forget’ his training, but not at age 5. I also found that they do thrive on routine - this is rather annoying when you’re a bit more of a spontaneous person, but they do better when they have structure. I tried to change the routine over the holidays because, you know, maybe I would enjoy some relaxation! But Kaiser just follows me around as if the next thing I touch will be for him, man is it ever annoying, the expectation in his eyes, the utter disappointment when he realizes the world is not his oyster - total drama queens, but all about the scheduling! Make a new schedule for Bam and see if that doesn’t help to sort him out. Failing that, there are always drugs :spit: Just kidding ;) But not really :rofl:
    • Agree Agree x 1

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