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Discussion in 'Doberman Health Issues and Questions' started by Dawg 1419, Feb 10, 2019.

  1. Dawg 1419

    Dawg 1419 Hot Topics Subscriber

    We spent last night till 2am at the emergency vet. Any info you can give me about this condition I’m all ears. We had been feeding puppy food but it was to rich for Sadie’s stomach, through trial and error we Finally figured that out. Now she is eating 4health 4health Lamb & Rice Formula Adult Dog Food, 35 lb. Bag at Tractor Supply Co.. What this dog has been through the last few months I feel bad for her. And feel like a terrible owner. I really thought she had been poisoned. Any changes in diet she gets the diarrhea so this change if any will be slow.

    • Empathetic Empathetic x 1
  2. Ddski5

    Ddski5 Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    So sorry to hear about Sadie.

    What food were you feeding before. How high was that protein content?

    Sure hope you have it figure out but I am gonna bump for Bri. Hopefully she will answer, she has been out lately.

  3. Dawg 1419

    Dawg 1419 Hot Topics Subscriber

    There is a link in my op but here is the analysis
  4. Ddski5

    Ddski5 Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    The Lamb and Rice is what you are feeding now.

    What were you feeding beforehand.

    Reason being is that there is a notion that high protein can cause Pano, so wondering what you fed before and what the protein content is.

    The Lamb and Rice is only 21%, so you are good with it on this new food.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  5. Dawg 1419

    Dawg 1419 Hot Topics Subscriber

    Some puppy food at 27% can’t remember but that was two months ago. I can’t find another food lower than the 21%. Yes the lamb and rice is what she has been eating for 2 months. Only thing that has changed is I moved their 10x20 Kennel up to the driveway(concrete) where she spends the day 7 hrs at most while we are working. I moved it because she loves to dig and eat dirt and have the diarrhea. So she can’t dig on the concrete. Then my wife takes her and goes walking 2/3 miles every day. Could the concrete and walls be contributing to the pano?
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Ddski5

    Ddski5 Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    27% is not really that high.

    Not knowing any different, I initially had Ragnar on TOTW High Prairie 32% protein and he never got Pano. Not the highest but 32% is pretty high.

    As I said about it being a notion is that some info I have read says it can be caused by high protein and some say it’s a false claim....

    How old is Sadie? 2/3rds mile every day? Is it a fast pace? Is Sadie calm on the concrete or does she jump up and down alot??

    What makes for the diagnosis of Pano? Is she limping around?
    • I was wondering about that too! I was wondering about that too! x 1
  7. Dawg 1419

    Dawg 1419 Hot Topics Subscriber

    She is 7months old. She is basically just walking around messing with our terrier and Shih tzu in the pen, The pace of the walk is not slow but not fast fast. All test run last night and ex rays pointed to pano. She was limping on wright front Monday thru Thursday then it moved to the back right Friday. No food eaten Friday night or Saturday. Once it moved to the back is there was no more eating. She was shivering about 9 last night so we headed for the emergency vet about 10. All blood test were normal and Heartworm test negative. I trust them as we’ve been there twice in the past with different dogs and every time they have been correct. With pain meds today she has been eating more and drinking.
    • Empathetic Empathetic x 2
  8. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Pano (aka growing pains) is not uncommon and can be very frustrating. You can talk to 10 different Vets and get 10 different answers about the cause. Some feel it's diet related and others think there is a genetic link because it can be more common in certain breeds. I think the one thing they will agree on is the right balance of calcium and phosphorus is key to proper bone growth.
    Whatever the cause or cure, I hope you find some answers to help your girl. As you discovered pano can be very painful and nobody wants to see their pup suffer.
    • Like Like x 2
  9. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I think this may have something to do with it. So she's standing on concrete for 7 hours a day? I don't think that's good for her legs. Just my opinion but I think standing on concrete for hours at a time isn't good for anybody. It's hard on your feet and legs.
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 2
  10. Dawg 1419

    Dawg 1419 Hot Topics Subscriber

    I agree.
  11. LifeofRubie

    LifeofRubie Notable member

    Hrm... I do seem to recall something about lamb based foods being an issue with the taurine levels associated with DCM. Lamb protein in general is lower in Taurine than other protein sources. Just something else to think about :facepalm:
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. Kaiser2016

    Kaiser2016 Active Member

    The latest I've read on this is that higher protein is higher calories which is the cause. I read this just this weekend and the person commenting was one of the FB raw feeding experts but she didn't cite any studies so it's all still 'general consensus'.

    I agree the cement is not a good thing.

    One thing about pano is that it is not the end of the world. It's a big scary word but it's just growing pains, remember being a young teen and your shins would ache? I can see that a very rich food would lead to faster growth which is never good hence never feeding a puppy formula. Your lamb is 21% - that's great! The safe range I recall seeing was anything under 26%. I have also heard it said the heavier bone of a Euro can cause it. Lots of speculation.
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Tropicalbri's

    Tropicalbri's $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    My female developed Pano. Her diet was fine as far as cal-pho’s ratio. We see it more in certain breeds than others. It’s painful for them and moves to different legs and joints. We just had to wait it out. It diminished after she was 16mo old.
    I think the causes are still open to interpretation. As long as radiographs did not show any other injuries, it will be best to keep their walking surfaces and crate surfaces cushioned. Running on slippery floors and other hard surfaces should be eliminated. Placement of rugs or other stabilizing flooring is beneficial in keeping them comfortable.
    Any exercise done walking on a leash is considered forced exercise and should not be done until 18mo old. Free play and running in grass, sand etc. is acceptable exercise for the age.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  14. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    Also another good reason NOT to Spay/Neuter until after Growth Plates have closed. As these hormones are needed for bone growth and muscle development.
    • Agree Agree x 2
  15. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    You can also try giving Boswellia. Its good for Joint pain and Inflammation. Also an Immune booster and Cancer fighter. Make sure its USDA/ORGANIC or Non-GMO
    10-20mg for every 2.2 pounds of body weight.
    We give it everyday to our 9yr old boy.

    Health Benefits of Boswellia for Dogs - Earth Clinic®
    Boswellia is an herb that has been used since ancient times for its medicinal value. This herb is a wonderful natural remedy for dogs. A boswellia supplement is especially useful for older dogs who are more prone to joint pain, tumors and inflammation.
    Last edited: Feb 11, 2019
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  16. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    The info below will help teach (this is only one way there are more) you on how to read an ingredient list and what's in pet food.

    The only thing is that any ingredient that is listed after Salt are in minuscule amounts.

    The Salt Divider: Deciphering Dog Food Ingredients
    The 5 Steps To Stopping Dog Shotssalt-divider
    Rodney Habib
    Labeled the "Jamie Oliver of pet food" by his supporters, Pet Nutrition Blogger Rodney Habib is an award winning blogger, magazine writer, and is currently filming a TV series for Animal Planet focusing on pet obesity.

    The Salt Divider: Deciphering Dog Food Ingredients

    By: Rodney Habib
    We’ve heard it for centuries, from our mother or father, and they have heard it from their parents, and them from their parents, while sitting at the dinner table:

    “Eat your vegetables!”

    Vegetables are a symbol of health worldwide; an essential food group that must be added to our plates in order to give us the perception that we are making healthy choices. For most of us, it works. We feel good knowing that somewhere in our breakfast, lunch, or dinner that there is some kind of fruit or vegetable, and, for the rest of the day we will have peace of mind knowing that we did something right.

    Advertising Tactics
    To a pet food marketer, it’s important to give us that confirmation and reassurance when we purchase their food, that same feeling that we are doing something right. Their goal is for us, the pet owner, to look at their packaging and make us crave it. They actually try to make us think: “I would eat that!” The term in the industry is called humanization.

    The pet food industry is constantly trying to humanize pet food by adding exotic fruits, vegetables, and even superfoods, to the ingredient panels, thinking that this will raise the ante over the competition. It would only make sense for manufacturers to splash pictures of real, whole, fresh foods all over the packages. If it’s splattered all over the package, then surely there must be tons of it in the food, right?

    Check out more about the pet food industry and their mission to bring down raw foods … Click Here!

    I can recall a point in my life, many years back when I thought I was ahead of the game when it came to pet food ingredient labels. I knew that I wanted to avoid “by-products”, “corn”, “BHA & BHT’s”, etc. My White Shepherd, Sammie, had developed serious kidney issues at a young age. The obvious thing to do was to find a bag of kibble that contained cranberries. Remember, I was ahead of the game and knew that cranberries + kidney problems = positive results. So I got in my car and drove to the nearest pet store in search of the bag with the largest picture of a cranberry I could find. When I found it, it was like I was in a movie. Everything around me froze, I could hear angels singing in the background, and there it was: a giant, pure white bag with the reddest and most delicious-looking cranberries displayed proudly on the front, starring right at me!

    I rushed over and grabbed it, flipped the bag over and found what I was looking for in the ingredient list: cranberries. Perfect!!

    As some of you may already know, an ingredient panel on a package of pet food goes from greatest to least (before it is cooked). Seeing cranberries in this list, along with the giant photo on the front of the bag, lead me to believe that this was the miracle food my dog needed for her kidneys until…

    One day, months later, I started researching in more depth the complexity of ingredient labels. I stumbled across something that changed my life and my pet’s life forever.

    Although the pet food manufacturer’s recipe is a trade secret, through research I discovered ingredients that can act as markers to help give us an idea of the quantities being used. There is one ingredient in particular that can help us shed some light on the mirage marketers may be trying to create.

    The Association of American Feed Control Officials (AAFCO) recommends that dry dog food contains at least 0.3% sodium, and that dry cat food contains at least 0.2% sodium, for both maintenance and to support normal growth and development. These are minimum recommended levels.

    Quoting Dr. Marion Nestlé, Professor in the Department of Nutrition, Food Studies, and Public Health at New York University and Malden Nesheim, Professor of Nutrition Emeritus and Provost Emeritus at Cornell University, in their book “Feed Your Pet Right”:

    Because most pet foods use similar formulas, our rule of thumb is that any ingredient that follows salt on the list must make up less than 1 percent of the diet. This has to be true for ingredients like vitamins and trace minerals because only tiny amounts are needed […]. Salt is a convenient marker of quantity.

    They called it the Salt Divider
    So anything that follows salt is basically found in tiny, minuscule amounts in the product.

    After reading that, I rushed to my bag of kibble and frantically searched the ingredient panel. Organic chicken… potatoes… eggs… there it is: salt! Here is an example of how my ingredient list looked:
    Organic chicken, potato, arctic char, chicken fat naturally preserved with mixed tocopherols, sweet potatoes, dried egg product, peas, natural chicken flavor, dried tomato pomace, whole flaxseed, lecithin, potassium chloride, “salt”, choline chloride, yeast extract, calcium carbonate, dried chicory root (a source of inulin), ferrous sulfate, taurine, zinc oxide, organic duck, alpha tocopherol acetate (a source of vitamin E), apples, “organic cranberries”, yucca schidigera extract, crab and shrimp meal, New Zealand green mussels, sea cucumber, organic dried blueberries, organic dried pineapple, honey, organic dried rosemary, organic dried parsley, organic dried spearmint, organic carob, organic dried seaweed meal, organic dehydrated alfalfa meal, organic asparagus, organic green tea extract, organic dried spinach, organic dried broccoli, organic dried carrot, organic dried cauliflower, zinc …

    Ten ingredients past salt, after all of these vitamins and minerals, was organic cranberries.

    This can’t be right, I said to myself. The 30lb bag of food I had bought had a cranberry the size of a football on it! The food just HAD to contain a decent amount of the ingredient. However, the ingredient panel had it listed ten ingredients past salt, meaning less than a sprinkle of a cranberry was actually in that bag; no more than a pinch in almost 120 cups, or a 40 day supply, of food!

    It was like everything I thought I knew about pet food and ingredients labels, all of which formed a perfect bubble, popped.

    The promise of cranberries, along with images of blueberries, apples and duck, which took up more than half the front of the bag, was deliberately misleading. The reality was that the amount of those four ingredients together would most likely equal the size of a single blueberry.

    I really want to stress on this ABSURD reality.

    This is the part in the movie where one should turn up the volume. I, as the manufacturer, can take a single teeny tiny apple seed and drop it into a massive 30lb bag of pet food, and then actually list it on my ingredient panel. To add salt to the wound (pun intended) I can then splash apples all over the front of my bag. That is right, I just sold you the illusion, that you are going home with a bag full of food containing healthy, delicious apples to feed your pet and I haven’t broken any rules.

    This is the flaw in the rulebook that is being highly exploited by manufacturer and their marketers.

    With pets in need of certain vegetables, herbs, nutraceuticals and other nutrients in their diets, owners must realize the importance of paying attention to detail.

    Expensive ingredients, organic ingredients, GMO free ingredients; these are plastered all over the packages with full-blown visuals, yet they fall almost 5 to 25 ingredients past our salt divider.

    Read Your Labels
    The moral of the story is: read your labels and do some research. Do not allow the visual on the package or the perception of certain ingredients determine your overall purchasing decision. If you want to give your pet cranberries, then go buy some that are fresh and locally grown and personally add them to their dish.

    Rodney Habib

    Labeled the "Jamie Oliver of pet food" by his supporters, Pet Nutrition Blogger Rodney Habib is an award winning blogger, magazine writer, and is currently filming a TV series for Animal Planet focusing on pet obesity. He travels around the world, gathering current data from the Pet Industry, and relays it to his supporters. He has one goal in mind when it comes to all his work: to be the change he wants to see in the world.Visit Rodney and his retail pet store, Planet Paws at Facebook
    • Like Like x 2
  17. Archer

    Archer Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I had a boy with Pano. You actually want to feed adult food. Fromm Gold Large Breed Adult is what i personally have found to be the best for Pano and knuckling. Larger breed dogs like Dobermans should not have puppy food becauae it actually causes them to grow too fast and developmental long bone conditions like Pano ensue. It is best not to supplement calcium as that upsets the calcium to phosphorus ratio and harms more than helps. You want your protein no higher than 28% and cal to phos 1-1.3-1. Fat content should also be lower. Supplementation with Vitamin-C also helps as it binds calcium and helps with conditions like carpal Flexural deformity, Pano and HOD.

    No cement. Soft surfaces only. No forced exercise. Free running on soft surfaces only. They typically grow out of it at 18 months when growth plates close
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1

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