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Orlando vet employee fired after slamming dog into wall

Discussion in 'Canine News/Informative Articles' started by JanS, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I'm not talking about Big Brother, Big dogs, training our kids, etc. I am keeping it simple and just talking about the video at hand. :)

    I don't care if the camera is shaky, or if the woman/man behind the camera should be taking it or not, or if Vets should have to put up with that. I'm not talking about if MY dog would act like that because they wouldn't.


    A lot of posts here have me confused as to where you all stand on the slamming. There is so much conversation about everything around it, that I'm missing the bottom line, ya know? Do you or don't you agreed with this technique with THIS dog?

    All I'm saying is, that in my opinion, THIS situation and THIS "technique" is wrong and something I would never do. AND that, at least in the end, this woman was reacting in anger.

    And, no, as I've stated, I've never been in a situation of fighting dogs (two or more) or a dog coming at me on a leash. Dogs fights do terrify me. I admit that. (And I've never even seen one in person! ) Two or more larger dogs would probably outweigh me, and for sure, out muscle me. I know I could not handle that without being hurt. Even two small dogs going at it is difficult if not impossible to grab without getting bit yourself.

    But with a dog this size, by itself, on a leash.....even I could hold it at arms length. And what was shown in Silent Dobe's video is exactly what I would start with. Could I do it with what looks like a Mastiff? No. But we are not talking Mastiffs.

    Tasha & Boris' Mom I wish your puter would allow you to watch this video. It is horrifying to watch. I don't know how anyone could watch that and calmly say, Oh, yea, that's a "technique" on how to handle an aggressive dog and one that I condone. :nono:

    And, yes, I may be reacting with emotion, but if you can watch that, and have no emotion, well, I just don't know what to say about that. Seeing her swinging that dog by the neck into a wall makes me insane. (How many times have any of you seen this reaction from me here? :blush:LOL) And, you know what? It isn't even that she 'pushes' him up against the wall, like maybe I would do with a big dog to try and contain it. She is taking a hefty back swing first! :pullhair: With a dog that she way outweighs! If ANYone watches that with no emotion, then you must be dead. LOL! I've yet to show the video to anyone else and I suspect because deep down it's just so horrifying to me that I don't want to subject anyone else to it.

    My Motto is "Never Stop Learning" and I do believe that! But no one will ever convince me that swinging a dog into a wall is a technique I need to learn. Ever. And I am the first to say, Never say Never. But I can tell you with no problem that I would NEVER swing a dog into a wall or anything else!

    BOTTOM LINE.
     
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  2. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber


    That's exactly the tool (and technique ;) ) I was speaking of in my post of #53.
     
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  3. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    One more thing (lol)

    Even though I am reacting with a lot of emotion, I DID go back (reluctantly so and regretfully so) and try and critique this intellectually. And I still came up with the same answer.

    :D
     
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  4. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    I took yesterday afternoon off so not really "silence" CRD. May I ask what your point was with that statement???? I have heard you say "this is my last post on this matter" and "I'll tell you what" and I think it is very passvie aggressive.

    So I will start back where i stopped off before my break of "silence"...

    First the dog in the video's problem is his LACK of Trust of people. That is why he is in the situation he is in and he has gone into full flight survival instinct which is a kill or be killed mentality. I certainly would not be swayed by a bunch of co-workers who might have even less knowledge of dogs and dog behavior than we on this list do. I would hardly call them objective especially if they are not dog people -their basis is most likely strongly AR driven opinions as we are fed it daily as we watch the HSUS and ASPCA commercials.

    So I don't count on others to justify what I feel, think or say. If there were not differences of opinion then we would have no need for a forum because everyone thinks the same, but that is not the case.

    The dog in the last video who is doing obedience again is not a good example as the dog was not in the "red" zone he was just being aggressvie because he did not like what he was being asked to do and he had training so you had something to work with. I also doubt that that man could have thrown him against the wall as he is way too heavy so that is not a good analogy if it is not physically possible.
    But notice he did have on a big coat and gloves so he was prepared.

    I guess I am fortunate in that I attend and/or assist every X ray and surgery my dogs might have so my dogs are not out of my sight unless for some reason I would board them which I don't do unless an extreme situatiion like a couple years ago when i went out of town and was trying to do an AI on Ayla so I left her for a week at the vets so he could do progestrone and then the AI if she blew while I was out of town. They all loved her but it is the difference in a socialized trained dog and one that is not.

    At this point in my life I doubt I could honestly safely handle a red zone..... I am no longer quick enough or strong enough so you must have a way to block a dog and that is why I said use the lid of a metal can....... how many have a metal can laying around close????

    If you are lucky and have a thick coat on thrown it over the dog and fall on the dog to pin it to the ground. You better pray you can hold that dog down til it stops struggling. That is your best and safest option. Again so much depends on what you have available and you have about 2 seconds to react correctly or get hurt. Those that are strong enough usually hang the dog til it stops fighting. I was never that strong and dont' really like to choke a dog down but certainly understand the need to do so in extreme cases.

    I have done the coat successfully one time and I prayed for a long time I never had to go there again. I was shaking so bad when it was over that I had to take the rest of the day off just to calm myself back down. It was the most frightening thing I ever had to encounter and i pray none of you ever encounter it etiher. Extreme behaior requires extreme action and if you are not prepared to go there then don't work with out of control dogs - I can tell you that honestly you don't know what you would do when it happens. You don't have time to think - but you have to have strong dog sense and correct instinct or you will be hurt. You won't know til it is over if you made the right choice or not. guess it depends of if you still have your face and extremeties.

    I will NEVER forget seeing that mouth of snarling, growling teeth coming at me. Talk about panic - a dog fight is bad enough but when it is directed at you it rushes it to a whole different level.

    If everyone remembers - I said I did not approve of the technique she used - because there were better ways to handle it but just because she is a vet tech does not mean she ever works with dog outside the clinic or know anything about dealing with out of control dogs. I still say for her to do that she appeared to have some knowledge of the technique and they could have known the dog coming in was going to be out of control and they wanted to film it for training purposes. That guess from what I saw is as good as to jump to OMG abuse. Maybe she had read about the hanging technique on the internet but had no real training in how to use it properly and she acted on instinct.

    Now I don't know physics but if she is standing a foot or so away from the wall and had the leash in her hand attached to the dogs head it would be almost impossible to actually slam the head into the wall as the leash would pull the head back as it got closer to the wall which is what appeared to be happening.

    Too add - sorry just saw the last post - the pitbull have waht is called a bully stick to break the dogs bite. But a stick will not save you frm a big dog period. You need something big to block a large area of your body.
     
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  5. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I agree with all the above. YAY we agree ! LOL! :p

    Fortunate to say the least. How many Vets allow a client in their surgery?? I would think it not a matter of "being watched" but more of sanitary reasons and not having to deal with someone getting sick/fainting/etc. I don't know why I would want to be in on a surgery. It's not like I can tell if they are doing something right or wrong. :) I might like to be there until they are asleep? But what good am I sitting there watching?

    As for drawing blood or whathaveyou, my Vet draws it in the exam room with me. I've never asked to be with them for any xrays but I probably could. He's pretty understanding.

    I'm not strong enough either and in my younger years, probably not savvy enough. lol Not that I am now, but I think I've learned some things through the years! lol The only place I have a metal can lid is in the horse barn for my grain. ;)


    Oh, I'm sure it was awful....but again, I'm only talking about this small dog.

    Actually, I don't remember what you're stand was on this because there is so much other 'agenda' clouding the bottom line. I'm not being funny or smart ass, honest! I just mean there is so much talk about everything else that I found it hard to understand what everyone's (not just yours) opinion really was on this.

    The ''hanging technique'', as harsh as it sounds, is understandable to me. Not to the point of choking for gosh sakes, but THAT sometimes is the only thing stopping a dog. Lifting his head up and away so as not to bite you. I've seen little Cesar to it with Great Danes. I'm not as strong as him but I could do it with this dog. This Tech was not doing that at all! I never saw her LIFT the dog head up and HOLD. I think she was poking him with her finger and when he bit her, she took a swing.

    IMO this was not a training video. In the end, when she turned to the camera that's when things got 'out of focus' because the one behind the camera got panicky that she was caught filming. It was fine until then.

    You're gonna make me watch this damn video again, aren't you!? LMAO! UGHHHh Well, even if I don't watch it, let me say, I do understand what you are saying here except I do think the whole body, including the head, did touch the wall a few times. AND besides that, why are you even bringing that up? I mean, it's like you are making excuses for it being 'ok' just because the head didn't make contact with the wall?? I don't get that at all.

    I'm not talking about a break stick, I'm talking about a dog catchers hoop.

    dog catchers hoop.jpg
     
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  6. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    Clarifying one things D4E.

    I wasn't accusing you of silence.

    I was referring to both you and Silence our member. Which is why I mentioned both of you before my question.

    There is nothing passive, just trying to get both you and Silence to explain a situation if it did occur.

    I'm sure if you re read it you will see what I was trying to say.
     
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  7. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    Those dog catcher hoops are large and bulky. Having one laying around wouldn't be practical.

    The bulky stick though, that I can see.
     
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  8. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    It's just a stick. Doesn't take up that much room. I would think that a Vets office would find something like this very helpful, but maybe I'm wrong. It's peaked my interest enough to ask my Vet~! LOL
     
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  9. Tasha & Boris' Mom

    Tasha & Boris' Mom Hot Topics Subscriber

    MB you need to quit watching this video before you end up on anxiety meds lol:eek:
     
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  10. Gelcoater

    Gelcoater Expert ThreadCrapper $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    Or nightmares.
    After watching that cop shooting dog video a couple of times yesterday...Well lets say sleep wasn't very relaxing last night:(
     
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  11. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Honestly, I don't watch most of the ones that are posted here just because of the above! lol I can't stand animal abuse and it DOES give me sleepless nights sometimes. Things stay in head sometimes for far too long when I see something that upsets me. I'm very emotional when it comes to animals. I can't help them all. No one can. And that's so frustrating to me. That's why I make it my business to do the very best with the animals I do have. They all have a wonderful life with me and I know what I can and cannot handle. I won't add anything unless it's well thought out and I know that I can provide that animal with the best care. Once here, they are here for life.

    For that reason I haven't watched the vid on the police shooting the Rott. And once Matt said what he said about the dogs screams, I KNEW I never would. THAT would kill me. :(
     
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  12. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    CRD my biggest apology - Can I just claim high stress???? Hubby is home for 4 days and we are having major plumbing problems and he has been trying for the last 3 days to get someone out here so now he is doing it himself - GOD HELP ME he is not a plumber.

    From my first post on the subject. I don't know how to be any clearer but when emotions take over sometimes we don't hear everything said or miss it. That is exactly how the AR groups have gains such a big hold and had so much success. They are not interested in dealing with reality.

    EX: Surgery - some can't handle it ...does it mean surgery is wrong and should not be done by those who can handle it???? We are loosing our great dog trainers. They are being replaced with those who have tried to appease the AR groups and they don't want anyone to use any technique that appears harsh - they suggest euthanasia. Read the post here... do you think the guy would be happier to get his dog back or to hear that they euthanized it due to aggression???

    I will say I can't lay all the blame at the vet tech's feet due to the above and there is a lot of outside things being read into the video. I don't think we can "judge" someone motives or emotions through any video so to say she showed anger ......well it did not resemble any angry response I have ever seen. It did not appear as thought she "lost it".......as the video goes to never never land. We can't read things into it and that is why I presented another option to consider - That being they were filming for a reason. Vets do not allow people to video in their clinics - Privacy rights of owners and staff.

    MB this is again on page two - I do not agree with the technique but I will say I understand what she was trying to
    accomplish.

    I gave the techniques i would have used but I would know instinctualy how to handle it as i have dealt with it. It is like training a dog in obedience - you priactice with the dog til he knows what to do the minute you stop he sits. A response has to be second nature.

    So if we make a statment that is based on a emotional response, it only escalates the situation. We all know no one in their right mind would allow an arm to be ripped off first... that is raw emotion speaking and it won't solve the problem either. When emotion talks it does not ever have to be rational. Again the AR groups have been very successful using that against us. No one wants any animal abused.

    You used the example of watching or assisting a surgery - it is not for everyone - it would cause some to faint. Heck some can't stand the sight of blood. Does that make surgery wrong just because it is gross and the dog can die??? I know that is not exactly the same thing but sometimes I cringe when the vet has to cause pain to find out what is wrong ex - broken limb

    But for me it would be hard to lay all the blame at one persons feet since the dog was not harmed or the owner would have been screaming at the top of his lungs from the begining. Several people have to accept at least part of the blame. To only blame one side of the problem is not going to solve the problem or correct it.

    We are all very lucky as we are not there having to deal with it so it does give us the luxury of being calm and try to evaluate it from different angles.
    MB I checked and my pulse is still going - As far as the hefty back swing again that is not what I saw - Does it help that I was shocked that she would resort to that method but I was not horrified. Now had the dog even one time been slammed with force I would have been horrified. But since I have more experience with extreme cases it did not lead me to the brink of insanity. I hope that doesn't make me dead or insensitive - I can cry with the best of them if anyone human or animal is hurt or abused. - I could gag and see red so I dont' think I am dead yet.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Silent Dobe

    Silent Dobe Well-Known Member

    One of the smartest things said to me by an old Chicago dog an was "Any dog (we were talking about aggressive dogs) needs three basic things to live. (I assumed food water shelter, he meant to be mentally satisfied) It's food, Air, affection." It makes sense. As a dog named Brownie, who was a super cute, SUPER AGRESSIVE, chow/GSD cross, was a board and train dog of mine was dealt with.

    Food was withheld from the bowl. OB was done on leash and the dog would very aggressively retaliate to any resistance to the collar which was only his flat buckle at the time. When he did the leash was tightened to withhold air. He was in no way jerked off the ground however. It was also unemotional and once he calmed he was gently set down and also given food when he would take it. Then affection.

    This is the same as a pack leader holding the offender until it has calmed then calmly and deliberately releasing it. Even rewarding it by allowing it to return to a meal.

    The employee could have tightened the lead and slid the dog on the ground away from the bite zone, waited until the fury had passed and led the dog where it needed to go. Instead She put emotion into it and was meeting aggression with aggression. This was a person who watched someone else do it right but didn't understand what was really going on and tried to. Do it herself.
     
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  14. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    I agree Silent - it was part of a technique not applied correctly and the swing against the wall is what has everyone all upset. Regardless of what we think videos do not tell all. Sometimes even when we are there in person we miss things.
     
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  15. Silent Dobe

    Silent Dobe Well-Known Member

    Sorry TapaTalk butchered my post lol dogman was in the first sentence
     
  16. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I have no arguments with those 3 basic needs, Silence. Especially for an aggressive dog. I have no experience with it, and yet it just makes sense to me. :)

    And so does the technique I bolded/underlined above. Once again, in my post #53, I stated much the same thing:

    MB said:
    That was my take on it too.

    I've said again and again that I felt the tech escalated it by being over aggressive in poking him and jerking the leash and not being calm. In the end, I believe she was screaming.

    And what training did her swinging the dog into the wall come from ? You say she watched someone else do it but she didn't understand and did it wrong. What part do you believe she did wrong? Is swinging a dog into a wall like that a real technique, that she did wrong?? I didn't see her hold the dog up for one second and give it a chance so obviously she was trying the technique we just spoke of.

    I know there is a lot I don't know when it comes to aggression, training aggressive dogs, etc. There are many methods and this may be one. It's not mine, any more than some of the horse methods I've heard about.




    Yes, the swing against the wall has got me upset. And what makes me shake my head more is when you say it like that because it implies that you are not upset.



    Yes, it helps a little to know you were shocked, lol, but why would it take slamming the dog to the wall harder for you to be horrified? You must have seen this before to say that she didn't hit the wall that hard? I still say it was hard and should not be done in the first place.



     
  17. Gelcoater

    Gelcoater Expert ThreadCrapper $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    So after enduring watching this video yet again all I can say is this.
    That didn't appear to me to be any kind of "technique" it appears more or less done out of anger and reaction(seemingly almost vengefully)to the dog snipping at her.
    I for one hope that bitch loses her job or the ability to get another in animal care of any kind.

    If I saw that happening to my dog I woulda come unglued and probably put her THROUGH that wall.
    Yes it would have been an emotional response,honestly I think hers was too.Not a technique.Never seen Cesar do that,never seen any dog handler do that.
     
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  18. Silent Dobe

    Silent Dobe Well-Known Member

    Clearly my alternative to what could have been done was ignored. Did I SAY she was training? No. I said she put emotion into it which immediately makes you unstable and means you are no longer teaching the animal.
     
  19. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Are you directing this to me? If so, please know that "ignore" and "misunderstanding" are too different things. Going back and forth on here can be very difficult to make one's self clear. Try as I might, sometimes I misconstrue something and also don't make MYself clear either. I would never ignore someones comment.

    Maybe you didn't say training, but saying she was trying to mimic someone elses "method" is, to me, a bit like training. Sorry I misunderstood.
     

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