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Orlando vet employee fired after slamming dog into wall

Discussion in 'Canine News/Informative Articles' started by JanS, Jun 29, 2013.

  1. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Judith with an out of control dog how would you get it into the crate without getting bit???? It is easy to say crate it but you have to be able to touch it to crate it. Of course you could have someone else hold the crate up in the air and you could pick the dog up by the leash and hope you could get it lowered into the crate but that would be a battle just as bad as what she did and that does not teach the dog that there is no danger and to calm down. Then what happens when you have to get it back out??

    Archer it sounds like it might work but you have to get the dog into the crate first if I understand what you are saying. Druging an animal does nothing to teach it anything. I am not for drugs they are a crutch. The objective should be to help the dog work though its panic so it does not go there again.


    But I would be for knocking some sense into the owner who has let a dog get so out of control it is not managable. Also if it is a big dog you would be in big trouble.
     
  2. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    This is a +100 lb women and a sub 20 pound dog.

    Can we really say that this women did something that was needed?

    A dog can rip my arm off before ii would even think to swing it by the neck.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  3. Archer

    Archer Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    They could get the dog in a kennel at the vets if it was a lower kennel. You guide it in with a leash and then leave the bottom of the leash (a long leash) sticking outside the front under the door so you can get the dog out after it is awake. I have seen this done. This is the method my best friend (a vet) uses and it works.

    I suggested the sedative not as a crutch, but as a bandaid to help the dog remain calm initially. I might work in medicine, but I am not for throwing medication at issues and blindly hoping they go away. This dog obviously needs training. Since this is not something that goes away overnight and the owner has to know the dog is an issue (or at least the clinic might) I figured it would at least calm the dog down so they could treat it now. My comment was for in the now, not for the future. This obviously should have been dealt with BEFORE it escalated to this. The dog needs professional training by someone knowledgeable in this area.
     
    • Like Like x 5
  4. Judith

    Judith Hot Topics Subscriber

    If we saw a man or a woman on the street doing this to a dog we would not be having this debate as to whether it is right or wrong.
    What this vet tech is doing to control the dog is animal abuse, it's the vet tech that should have had the training how to handle this kind of dog, because as much as we say it is lack of training [which it is] there are more untrained dogs than trained dogs and vet techs will always have to work with these dogs everyday and they are unable to spend more time training them.
    I am sure the lady in question is quite capable of getting the dog into one of the built in cages she is strong enough to swing the dog by it's neck, put the dog in the cage walk out and find another job, as they have not got the time or the staff to train the dog a sedative can be put into some food, there are lots of ways to handle this dog but what I see is abuse of someones dog that is terrified and will never want to go to the vets again, so is she helping the dog by doing this????????
     
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  5. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    We are not talking about someone on the street. That would be a whole different matter and we can dream up al kinds of horrible images and that feeds right into the AR agenda.

    It is easy to say you would let a dog rip your arm off first but I seriously doubt it. Survival kicks in and we automatically react to defend ourselves. Making a statement that could not be followed through with is not rational. We have to think rationally and devise a plan that works for the dog and keeps people safe. PETA and HSUS have done a great job trying to elevate animals to human rights ..... And because we want all dogs loved and cared for it is an easy philosophy to fall into. But in the end it is still AR driven.

    There are better techniques but if this woman had no training in how to handle dangerous dogs then she did a job that was needed at the moment. The dog was obvioulsy not hurt and it took them over a year to decide they might could get some publicity out of it and money. It would not surprise me if the person filming it was using it for training.......but that brings up a whole different set of questions - like did they sell the video to HSUS for their own use???? How and why did it get out a year later??

    Abuse has no purpose but to cause hurt and pain to something that can't defend itself. This was a technique used to try to get the dog to calm down so they could handle it.

    It would not be much prettier trying to first get the leash through a rung on the crate so you could choke the dog down as you try to get it manuevered into the crate. Neither technique would be pretty or easy. If a dog is in a panic like that then that is the time to help it. Sadly vets are not trained in handling animals like this in school and neither are vet techs. It is the spur of the moment holy crap what now situation. She was not trying to hurt the dog but to break the cycle of panic. It did not work for this dog so it was not the right technique and she did not follow through so she would not achieve what she was trying for. She needed addl training in handling a situation like this. .

    I know from both horses and dogs - in real life situations - when they go into the panic situation they have no thought process at that point but base survival and they can hurt themselves or you very badly if you do not know how to control the situation and it does take drastic measures. NONE are designed to HURT the animal but to keep it from hurting itself and you in the process. Feeling sorry for it at that point is not an option because you are in a battle for survival. If you do not win the animal does not learn but if you win it becomes a BIG trust building action for both you and the animal. You have to stay with it and see it through. But I could and would never advocate letting any animal hurt a human for any reason.

    If we as dog owners do not learn how to handle things like this when it comes up then the AR groups win. This is completely different from true animal abuse. I would speak out against animal abuse myself. This was a completely different situation.
     
  6. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Did anyone notice post disappearing??? What happened??
     
  7. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    Which ones are you referring to?

    I see one double post that was deleted.
     
  8. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I may one of the few, but I am going to withhold any judgement. To me this was just a few seconds of a incident. I have no idea what the circumstances were that lead up to what we saw.
    When I was in school I took a class on rhetoric and propaganda techniques. It is amazing what a little editing can do to change a scenario. My professor actually showed some clip that were edited to make a point. I remember one where what we saw looked like a mother abusing for child. I was horrified by what I saw. Then he showed us the unedited version and I was shocked at what a little manipulation can do. People with an agenda have no boundaries. I would have to see the whole unedited version before I passed any judgement.
     
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  9. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Strange - they are showing up now. Do you think it has something to do with the maintance??? or just my glitch??
     
    • Like Like x 2
  10. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    This is the last I will say about this subject. The thought of these two videos (police officer one, and this one) just pains me.


    Here is my solution.

    You apply that extra 120 lbs you have on the dog and keep it from moving.
    Someone else comes up to apply the sedative.

    If I can control a 70 lb foster who freaks out during nail time (Molly, not Amber) I can guarantee this women could control this little dog.

    I can honestly say that without an inkling of a doubt that I would not do this to a dog no matter how many times I was bitten.
    What separates us humans from dogs is that when we go into that fight or flight mode, we still have rational thinking.
    I have also been bitten by a very out of control dog (friends german shepherd) while attempting to do his nails. I did not overreact, I kept going and subdued the dog.
    I did not pick him up by his collar and throw him against the wall.

    This woman lost her rational thought, which is exactly why she got so upset when she found out she was being videotaped. We are judged as people by what we do behind closed doors. Unlucky for her, this door had a window, and an honest person to videotape and hold her accountable for her actions.

    Abuse can be defined as poor treatment, which is exactly what this is.
    Honestly, calling this something it isn't is more of a threat to AR groups than just calling the turd by its correct name.
    I dislike AR groups as much as the next guy, but if they label this abuse I am right there with them.
    Improper treatment, mal treatment, abuse, they all mean the same thing.


    I want everyone on this thread to imagine how they would feel if this was there dog? It would be unacceptable right? Just how it is in this scenario. IMO
     
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  11. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    It could be due to the maintenance, I am not sure if they are working on it this second. I would imagine that stuff may be quirky until it all gets sorted out. Von is really busy with those wonderful puppies I am sure.
     
    • Like Like x 2
  12. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    :groan: Ya mean I have to watch it again? lol I am, just because I would like to give my thoughts on what I might do. Keep in mind, Suzan, you are right.......I have never been in a 'fighting dogs' situation. Small or large. They DO scare the hell out of me, mostly two large dogs fighting. I've seen some hairy horse situations and I'd much rather deal with that than two big dogs fighting. :eek: LOL
     
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  13. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    OH, GOD, NO!!!!!! That is f****** insane, sorry.(what am I apologizing for? lol I am fighting mad!!)

    First off..........I really felt in the first few seconds, from what I could see on the video (who knows what came before they started filming), the dog was just lying there. I didn't see him fighting or biting her or anything. His ears were UP and forward not back, which portrayed more interest to me than fight mode. He was on his side, not snapping or moving....She actually seemed to have a somewhat loose leash with him laying there. She should have STOPPED....to show that that was acceptable and be somewhat of a 'reward'. Stop the momentum and see if he regains composure. Instead, she whips him at the wall when I didn't see any fight in him (the second whip) AND, she whipped him at the wall, not kicked him TO the wall, she f****** whipped him at the wall! That sound was him hitting the wall.

    Then he was on the floor again, and again I didn't see him fighting back? I think he may have snapped at her, I'm not sure. But she seemed to keep putting her hands on him or near him. Maybe she was trying to put him on his side (Cesar) or doing a finger poke, IDK but it wasn't working and she, IMO, was making it worse and putting herself in harms way.

    SO she whipped him AGAIN! IMO again, I think she is escalating the situation more than the dog. She is not giving the dog a chance to respond. Or calm down. And then she SWINGS him again and again against the wall. O...M...G

    OK, I 've watched that F****** thing four times and I cannot take one more time. But I am trying to really give a constructive answer here. But I STILL feel that in the beginning, she had ample opportunity to gain control over the situation. The dog WAS ON THE GROUND! On the ground and she kept pulling him up and still, in my opinion, making it worse. I think it was after the second slam (I'm not watching that thing again!) that it really looked like the dog went after her. I would too!! Then she swings it over and over and I then want to grab her around her neck. :mad:

    Where in the video did you *(Suzan) see that the sound was her kicking the dog to the wall??? I never saw that. All I saw was her swinging a small dog, (that even I feel confident that I can control in my very limited experience) by the leash, off the ground, and taking a long, hard swing. No one will ever convince me that that is the correct way to handle this.

    She has a leash on the dog. Number one. Very important. You have some control. I don't know what she was trying to accomplish, so that's number two. Was she trying to just get the dog in a crate? I don't think that's very hard. You have a leash on a 20lb dog. I'm sure they have a stick like the dog catchers with the hoop at the end? Why couldn't they try that and just put the dog in the crate and tie the leash on something so that they still have control to either get the dog out or pull the dog to the crate to administer a sedative. Even without the dog catcher thing I think she could have maneuvered that dog by the leash to a lower crate like they have in Vets office. Use a stick or something. I don't think it would be that hard.

    Even if she was trying to control the dog for an examination, the above would work, because without a sedative you are never going to be able to accomplish that. I doubt the dog was there for 'training'. If it were, she's wrong on that too.

    I forget who said it, but also taking it for a walk might diffuse the situation a bit. Not knowing the history of this dog or what the intent of the tech was, puts us at a disadvantage. I realize how things can be taken out of context and a short video like this doesn't tell the whole story. But again, its a 20 lb dog. You have a leash on it. You can easily hold that dogs head up and away from you. Give the damn dog a chance to relax and calm. I still say the tech escalated the situation. And every time I watched it it sickened me. I would press charges if I saw someone do that to my dog. :guns:
     
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  14. Ingrid H

    Ingrid H Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    If it were my dog, it would never have been in this situation in the first place. I don't use a vet who takes my dog away from me unless she is sedated for surgery or x-rays, and since I know Ladybug has a bite history, she goes into the office wearing a wire basket muzzle every time. That muzzle really puts the tech and vet at ease. I wouldn't put them into a dangerous situation with my dog and expect them to examine, treat and handle her.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  15. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    They are two very different videos and the one has nothing to do with the other. I agree the policeman was wrong..... I agree there were better techniques the girl could have used had she been trained to handle dogs that have lost reasonable reactions and left planet earth.

    But when we make an irrational statement like we would let a dog rip our arms off first we are just a tad over the top. That is not a rational thought as I doubt anyone would really let that happen. The problem is we have too many thinking with emotions as opposed to reasonable thought. That does not help anyone.

    It is a far cry getting bit while doing nails and a dog that is in full flight panic mode at it deepest survival level and out to kill or be killed. They do not even compare as to what one is facing. You can simply put a muzzle on the nail biter and you would be eaten alive by a dog in full blown panic and just striking out blindly. We have to understand dogs and dog behavior and they are not human behavior.

    We have to have viable options to dealing with out of control dogs and saying I would just let them bite me is creating an even bigger problem with the AR groups especially when it comes to dealing with large breed dogs and BSL. We must show them that we are reasonable and the we understand dogs, dog behavior and we have techniques to deal with it calmly.

    You can't just yell foul if you don't have the solution...................We need solutions not hysteria. You need solutions that work for anyone because not every time will you have a vet handy to drug a dog. So shouldn't we learn how to handle dogs on their terms not human emotions?

    So I told Jan in a PM I would grab the dog by the scuff of the neck and hold it til it stopped fighting. Not that hard with a small dog and on leash. It would help to grab the back legs once you have the scruff of the neck so the dog can't bite you.

    Second I would have someone grab a towel and throw it over the dogs head to help quiet the dog down. Once the dog has exhausted itself and calms down then proceed with whatever you were going to do so the dog does not win and become even more out of control.

    If you have a big dog out of control all bets are off and you do whatever you can to get control safely for people should always be first and foremost- You would be forced to use different techniques for this situation. First to protect the person i would hope there is a metal trash can handy and i would grab the lid to use as a shield!!!! Just to start - anyone have any ideas on where to go from there??? We must have solid dog training techiniques and not fall into the AR hysteria of OMG that is terrible. The dog was not hurt you can clearly see that.

    Wow so you would have no privacy..... BIG BROTHER watching all??? That is a big step to loosing all our rights. My first thought on the video was they were doing it for training purposes because who else would be videoing it honest or not? I say that because it did not surface for over a year and she was not fired evidenlty til recently. Then some AR nut got hold of it and now it has gone viral and the AR groups are sitting back laughing at us. Had the dog been harmed it would be different. She used a techinique incorrectly so it diid not work but it was not abuse.

    You know this probably won't be the last I say on this thread .....I am here for the dogs for the long haul. There are too few people today who understand and know how to handle big dogs heck they don't even know how to handle small dogs- Just look at BSL the AR groups have found a weakness in our thinking rationally about our animals and they have capatilized on that weakness. Even a lot of the "dog Trainers" today prefer to put a dog down than to learn how to deal with it - because they have been led down the garden path and believe animals should be human and have more rights than people. Can you see the contradiction in this thinking? Animal Rights = euthanasia ?????

    Why do we have BSL???? Why are we hearing about so many dog bites??? What has happened??? I could tell you but I need to start a hott topic for that one for sure. People like our dogs must have good judgement - common sense.

    Sorry I was not clear - I saw the dog kicking off from the wall and it did make a thump.
     
  16. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    So I was very close in my thoughts on how to control this dog. Grabbing the leash in much the same manner as you say 'grab him by the scruff of his neck.' I only was thinking of how to do it without putting hands in danger. Perhaps pulling up by the leash would allow me to grab his neck also. BUT we are on the same page with 'trying to quiet the dog and exhaust the situation? I'm not even sure if I feel the towel over the head helps. Somehow I think that may excite him more by frightening him. I understand "blindfolding' an animal like a horse is supposed to help. Maybe it would. I'm not sure. But I think calmly holding him up until he calms is the key.

    Do you not agree that she escalated the situation?

    And *sigh* I still cannot get over her swinging that dog by the neck and slamming against the wall. No way, no how, do I feel that that is a correction I would use.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  17. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I think you are taking this one step outside the box in that she was simply saying that what we do when no one watching is how we really are judged.......by ourselves, by God, whathaveyou. No one wants Big Brother. It just happened that someone was watching when she didn't know it. Would she have done this with someone watching? If her answer is no, then it's obvious that she was reacting out of anger. If yes, then its probably inexperience or lack of training.
     
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  18. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I believe that's emotion talking too. Of course he wouldn't allow both arms to be ripped off but its a powerful way to say, I would never treat a dog like that.

    I truly understand the emotions behind horror like this because I react quite the same way. Emotions first. But that's simply because I am VIEWING the video and not there with the girl. If I was with her, I would be like this first :eek: but I think thoughts of controlling the dog quickly would become a fast second. Because action would be needed...fast. After it was over, I'd be giving her a piece of my mind, though. :tap:
     
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  19. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Trash can cover is a great idea! Even Cesar will sometimes 'go in' with something in his hand as a shield. I would hope that I would think like that if that situation ever arises but my first thoughts are my eyes are on the dog! So much so that I forget all else. Trying to read body language... does he mean me harm? is he gonna charge? Looking away for a 'tool' should be the next step but even in my minds eye now, envisioning it, I find it hard to look away. I wouldn't dare turn my back, but turn to the side instead. Don't run. And try not to stare him down. Try and keep calm and hope he doesn't hear my heart pounding out of my chest. ;)

    Of course, the fighting dog in this situation (my mind) is loose. LOL Care to give a scenario ? ? lol Same situation as above but with a large dog? or what?
     
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  20. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    MB did you see anger in her actions??? But to throw in a different light - how much should vets and vet techs get paid to deal with out of control dogs??? It did looked to me as if she thought she knew what she was doing.. I did not say I agree with it but I did not see anger or abuse.

    That was a small area - so I doubt she did not know and that is why i wonder if they filmed it for training purposes in the future to show vet techs how she handled it. Funnier things have happened.

    Yes i agree because she did not follow through once she had the dog on the ground she actually escalated the situation. She was clearly in over her head but most in that situtation would be today. Just look at the lack of postive things to do that would control the situation andyone posted.

    I do think some people have dog sense and some don't. Some have experience and some don't .... but I don't think we can hang someone on a video that took a year to surface - could be altered and still shows the dog was not hurt by the action. It was a far cry from "slamming". Had the dog been slammed on a "soft" wall (ROFLOL) the wal would have probably been cracked in. wall board is kinda flimsy and breaks easily if hit hard.

    I think we have lost our dog sense to a big extent as we have gone soft on crime. Look at the prong collar - a very useful tool used correctly - HECK to appease the AR groups it has been banned at AKC shows - They would far rather have a dog drag you into the street and both be run over than to have the dog and person SAFE.
     

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