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Never vaccinating a puppy?

Discussion in 'Doberman Health Issues and Questions' started by Kaiser2016, Mar 18, 2019.

  1. Kaiser2016

    Kaiser2016 Active Member

    I saw a discussion on vaccinations on FB and someone posted a screenshot of part of this article. Thinking it was crazy, I found the article and it was from Dogs Naturally Magazine. Now that I read this, I can see that it makes sense, but I’m not sure how willing I am to risk losing a puppy by not vaccinating AT ALL. Interesting reading.

    Prevent Parvo and Distemper Without Vaccination
    Will Falconer, DVM

    Imagine avoiding risky vaccinations while getting very strong immune protection against parvo and distemper, the two potentially deadly diseases of puppies. That’s not only possible, but it’s been proven to work in the real world by a holistic vet in New Jersey, USA.

    Spending time with others of like mind often enhances your own understanding and clarifies your goals. It’s been said you are the sum of the five people you hang out with the most. Have you found your pack that supports you? Do your friends further your thoughts and share your goals?

    These past four days, I’ve been rubbing shoulders with some forty colleagues in veterinary homeopathy in the desert of Arizona. Several of us presented cases and we all learned from each other’s successes and struggles. We differed in our years of experience but our determination was one: we were here to improve the lives of those animals who found us, naturally.

    Inherent in this work is sharing our knowledge with you, the animal owner on the front lines, often struggling within a broken medical system.

    Ideas Are Infectious: Come and Get Naturally Immunized!
    You know vaccinations are grossly over-provided in our broken system of veterinary medicine. The pushing of vaccinations by Dr. WhiteCoat throughout your animal’s life doesn’t add to her immunity. Not even a little. That’s what we know from veterinary immunologists whose life’s work is measuring and quantifying the immune response.

    And you know that vaccines are harmful. Chronic disease often follows vaccination, even a single vaccination.

    When you were exposed to these ideas, you likely resisted at first, as your old paradigm wouldn’t square with such seemingly radical thoughts. How could someone taking care of my animals do something to them that was useless, expensive, and ultimately harmful to their wellbeing? Something that could damage the rest of their lives?

    The more you looked into it and the more evidence you weighed, the more these ideas took root: vaccinations repeated throughout life were not necessary and were downright risky!

    You became “immunized” from the exposure to these ideas and started acting accordingly. Intelligently responding, like a well tuned immune system, you started tearing up the reminder postcards saying your animal was “due for vaccination” yet again (as if her immunity was a finite quantity that ran out, a reservoir with a leak).

    Your newly acquired “immunity” went deep. You’d no longer expose those animals in your care to the unnecessary risks that come with repeated vaccinations. Perhaps you shared your newfound understanding with those open minded enough to listen. At dog parks, pet shows, horse shows and in online communities.

    You learned you were far from alone: many others were spreading these potent ideas in many different avenues.

    And your animals began to shine as you dropped out of the broken medical system, and began feeding in much healthier ways. Avoiding toxic pesticides. And taking heartworm prevention to a much higher level, using drug free and effective methods.

    Hello, Vital Animal. Come over here, I want to rub on you a while.

    Using Nature to Immunize
    Now comes a genuine booster idea for you from my time in the desert, being exposed to lots of healthy ideas from my colleagues in the trenches of holistic vet practice. A lecture on parvo by Dr Todd Cooney lit us up, as he showed us statistics from his homeopathic practice in Indiana that the vaccinated pups had less chance of surviving parvo than those not vaccinated for that disease! Hands shot up, voices added to the din of discussion, and ideas whizzed through the now electrified air:

    • Parvo vaccine itself was immune suppressive
    • Parvovirus was ubiquitous in the environment
    • Animals treated homeopathically when sick with parvo had far better survival rates than those treated with the usual drugs
    • Distemper was prevented by taking pups to a known wildlife area where raccoons with distemper lived

    Did I just hear that right? Yes, Dr Rosemary Manziano learned of the outbreak of canine distemper in raccoons in her area through the CDC. She boldly suggested to her puppy owners over a period of 11 years that they visit a pond known to be a hangout for these raccoons. After a brief period of sniffing around the bushes and maybe drinking the water, the pups were brought home.

    This was repeated a week later, and on the third week, the good doctor would test for distemper titers, the evidence of immune response. Lo and behold, these pups had fantastic titers indicating strong immunity! And, in case you’re wondering, not one puppy ever got sick in the least. This happened in well over a hundred pups and was, as Dr Manziano called it, “foolproof immunization.”

    After eleven years, it stopped working. She assumed that the disease in raccoons had run its course, natural resistance having been gained by their population. What to do now?

    Dr Manziano suggested that her new pup owners who wanted natural immunization take short, five minute visits to the most popular dog parks. Those parks with the highest dog traffic were recommended.

    The procedure was simple:

    1. Open car door
    2. Let pup out on the ground in the busiest part of the park
    3. Time five minutes
    4. Load up and go home
    Once again, after a couple of exposures like this, titers were drawn and were found high against both distemper and parvo. Immunization had taken place. How many got symptoms of either disease? None. Not one pup ever fell ill in years of doing this.

    In case you’re wondering, “How long will this immunity last?” the answer is simple: a lifetime! Remember the understanding of the veterinary immunologists from way back in 1992:

    Immunity to viral diseases lasts a very long time, likely a lifetime.

    Try This At Home! Spread The Idea!
    So, if your goal is natural immunization without the significant risks of vaccination, learn from the experience of a fine holistic vet and her many puppy patients for well over a decade and try this for yourself.

    Help to spread the infectiously attractive ideas of natural health and Vital Animals by sharing this information far and wide. See those sharing buttons at the top and bottom of this article? Click on one of your favorites and see what good you can foster in the world of holistic health for the animals.

    Will Falconer, DVM
    Dr Will Falconer DVM is a Certified Veterinary Homeopath based in Austin, Texas. After seven years in conventional practice, he felt a calling from within that made him move on. He has a global practice treating all species with the most holistic medicine ever. Certified in acupuncture. His latest thoughts and useful information can be found on his blog at VitalAnimal.com

    Copied from: Prevent Parvo and Distemper Without Vaccination
  2. LifeofRubie

    LifeofRubie Notable member

    I have a really, REALLY stupid question.

    I would never not vaccinate my children (theoretically speaking) against preventable diseases. Why is it different for animals? Are they just not regulated with the same stringent requirements as human vaccines? I am genuinely curious and am not way trying to be a smart@ss.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    Yes Dr. Falconer doesn’t like vacs. at all. He does use Nosodes. There are people that use Nosodes.

    The ABCs of Homeopathic Nosodes

    An Introduction To Veterinary Nosodes

    We are not that far yet of not vaccinating at all. But only for certain diseases we don’t vaccinate for.
    Me personally the only ones we vaccinate for are Parvo, Distemper and Adenovirus. But Adenovirus is very very rare now. It’s about non existent now.
    We never get any Combo Wombo 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 way vaccines!

    We only vaccinate puppies twice. Then Titer at about 18weeks. We Titer at least 2-3 weeks after last puppy Core Vaccines are given.
    Rabies we will wait as long as we can. And with an understanding Vet.
    We also never vaccinate for Kennel Cough, Lyme, Lepto, Flu

    I do like Dr. Jean Dodd’s minimal vaccine protocol.

    Look at all the vaccs. Children get today. More shots than their parents did when they were kids. Like 14 diseases by the age of two in as little as 18 shots if using combination vaccines. As many as 26 shots if using individual antigens.

    We I was a kid the only vaccines we got were Polio. Then at my job I did get a Hepatitis B vaccine.
    We got naturally immunity from measles, chicken pox and mumps by getting them!
    Last edited: Mar 18, 2019
  4. Kaiser2016

    Kaiser2016 Active Member

    I also wouldn’t skip vaccinations for human kids. The current measles outbreaks will likely lead to some sort of legislation around forced vaccinations for kids. I think where it gets problematic with pets is the excessive vaccination. I got all my shots during school and no one is trying to give me more every year. If I’m assumed to have lifetime immunity, wouldn’t it work the same way with pets?
    • Agree Agree x 2
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    • I was wondering about that too! I was wondering about that too! x 1
  5. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    Forgot to mention just because a vaccine is give. It doesn’t mean protection. Some dogs and cats can be what is called a non responder. Which means they will not produce antibodies for certain diseases. Like 1 in 1,000 dogs will not produce antibodies for Parvo.

    Canine Parvovirus Explained - Dogs Who Don't Respond to the Vaccine
    As above didn’t someone just go through Parvo with their pup on this site? I forgot her name.
    Her dog pup was vaccinated.

    Also I look at this way. Wolfs, Foxes, Coyotes and other wild animals don’t get vaccinated. Yes most will acquire immunity as Dr. Falconer suggests for pets.
    But yes at times some of these wild animals will die off due to some diseases like Distemper. We’re they not protected? But still not all will die off.
    • Like Like x 1
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  6. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    Vaccinations for viruses (Parvo, Distemper and Adenovirus) in pets will last 5-7 yrs and up to the life of the pet.
    It’s the Bacterial diseases like Lyme and Lepto need to be given every year. This is why you need to look at the lifestyle of you pet and location of where you live or even going to visit. Most importantly the rate of occurrence.

    Yes over vaccinations can be bad for health. The more given you might be playing Russian Roulette!
    Vaccinations don’t cause disease but can trigger them like Allergies and others.
    • Like Like x 2
  7. Lizbeli

    Lizbeli $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    Welp.. Im officially nervous again to take my pup out after his final parvo shot XD This is all really good information. However, im not sure I would be trying this with any puppy I get in the future. Can't deny the science- however I'm a wus and terrified of Parvo in particular.
    • Agree Agree x 6
  8. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    The biggest thing is not to get the Combo Wombo 5, 6, 7, 8 or 9 way vaccines. These I would be worried on getting.
    Most vets only have these.
    Ask you Vet to get just the Combo Parvo/Distemper Vaccine. They do sell single Parvo and single Distemper vaccines. If you Vet says they don’t. He’s full of :poop:.

    Also never get a Rabies vacc at the same time with any other vaccine. Wait 3-4 weeks in between or longer.
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
  9. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    @Lizbeli I would say read all the info you can on the subject then decide on what protocols you want to do.

    Anytime I refer to Core Vaccines. It only means Parvo, Distemper and Adeno. Rabies is a Core Vaccine also. But protocols for Rabies have not changed as of yet.
    Put it this way our Boy turned 9yrs old and Titered him last year. He still has a Positive Titer for Rabies.

    As I've said in the past, which was a statement from a Dr. Schultz vaccine seminar I attended years ago. Dr. Schultz stated, "Too much of a good thing can be bad thing". Which meant puppies do need Core Vaccines Parvo, Distemper and Adeno. But over vaccinating can be bad.

    Dr. Ronald Schultz, PhD Who is a teaching professor (might be retired now?) at The School of Veterinarian Medicine, University of Wisconsin-Madison.
    With over 40yrs of research in vaccines and Duration of Immunity of them. He was the reason finally why the Veterinarian community, Vet schools and Vet Associations changed Vaccine Protocols. The new protocols for Core Vaccines (Distemper, Parvo and Adeno) changed from yearly boosters to every 3yrs. The 3yrs was a arbitrary number the Vet community came up with and not Dr. Schultz. Even though Dr. Schultz's research proved that Core Vaccines last 5-7yrs and up to the life of the pet. The vet community thought they would be loosing $$$$$$$$ from pet owners not coming in for vaccinations. The new protocol also stated that Core Vaccines do last longer so Titer first before re-vaccinating.
    If your Vet still wants to vaccinate yearly for Core Vaccines? Tell them NO! Your the pet owner! Be an advocate for your pets.

    Ronald Schultz - University of Wisconsin School of ...
    Ronald Schultz. ronald.schultz@wisc.edu. Department of Pathobiological Sciences Office: 4476. Titles and Education. Professor and Former Chair; BS 1966, Pennsylvania State University; ... 2015 Linden Dr. Madison, WI 53706 » Contact Us » Stay Connected » Directions » UW Veterinary Care.

    Don't know of any Breeders (maybe @Rits or @GennyB will remember) that still use this method called Canine Nomograph? It helped breeders decide on when the right timing was to vaccinate their litters. Usually they would only vaccinate for Cores once.

    Canine Nomograph – What is it? | CAVIDS Titer Testing
    CAVIDS Titer Testing
    Canine Nomograph – What is it?
    A nomograph is an estimate of the amount of antibody passed to a litter of pups from the mother via her colostrum. During the puppy’s first hours of life, its intestinal tract is able to allow colostral antibody to be absorbed into the bloodstream. This passive antibody helps to protect the newborn from all the diseases that the mother is protected from. As the puppy grows up, maternal antibody breaks down in approximately 2 week “half lives” until it is no longer present in the pup. While this antibody is at higher levels, it is able to neutralize viruses such as canine parvovirus and canine distemper virus. Because of this neutralization, puppy vaccine can be blocked. Maternal antibody interference is one of the most common causes of vaccine failure to immunize! The reason that puppies are given multiple doses of vaccine is because most of the time we don’t know what their maternal antibody titers are, and so don’t know when the vaccine will be effective. Nomograph testing helps us understand the best timing of vaccination to assure a litter will be effectively immunized. Because the nomograph is limited by the ability of the dam to make colostrum and for the pups to receive it, nomograph results should not be used as a definitive indication of protection from disease. If you are a breeder who is experiencing a disease outbreak, please contact us prior to submitting a nomograph.

    (Reference: Baker, Robson, Gillespie, Burgher, and Doughty. A nomograph that predicts the age to vaccinate puppies against distemper. Cornell Veterinarian, Aug 1958, page 158-167.)

    The Cornell veterinarian. v.49 (1959).

    (Reference: Carmichael, Joubert, and Pollock. A modified live canine parvovirus vaccine. II. Immune response. Cornell Veterinarian,1983 Jan; 73(1):13-29.

    The Cornell veterinarian. v.73 (1983).

    Dr. Jean Dodds, DVM is another good go to person on Vaccinations.
    Last edited: Mar 19, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 1
  10. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    And when was the last time he had a rabies vaccination?
    • I was wondering about that too! I was wondering about that too! x 1
  11. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    His last (3yr) Rabies vac was 5/5/11 His Titer was 2/16/18
    • Wow x 1
  12. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Wow, so the vac lasted like 7 years?! That's awesome. How did you 'get away' with not getting the rabies?

    And what ever happened to the rabies survey thing? I thought they proved it didn't need to be done every year or even every 3 years?

    And is it true that the once a year rabies vaccine is the same as the 3 year? Or visa versa.
  13. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    #1 We don't need to prove they got a Rabies vac to get a county dog registration tag. They just ask Rabies Vaccination Yes or No!
    So I didn't lie. He did have one.

    #2 Have very understanding Vets that understand about vaccines. Vets in Vet school get vaccinated for Rabies. They still have a positive Titer 20yrs later! Ask
    @Tropicalbris she was vaccinated 20yrs ago (I think) She still has a positive Titer.

    #3 We never let him bite anyone. Or have had any encounters with wild animals like Raccoons and others that can be infected with Rabies.

    #4 Yes there are some questions about the Rabies Challenge Fund Study. www.rabieschallengefund.org Just like the Core Vaccines protocols have changed. Look how long that took. Dr. Schultz's studies go back to the 80's. That Core Vaccines last longer than every year!

    #5 Yes the 1yr vac is the same as the 3yr vac. Just labeled different.

    #6 And for sure now since he has DCM (diagnosed at 6yrs old and now he is 9yrs 2mo) with a life threatening disease. I will never vaccinate with any vaccine. As I always say per the instructions that comes with EVERY vaccine. "Only Healthy Animals Should Be Vaccinated".
    • Like Like x 1
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  14. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I wish I knew how they get away with this! :mad: That's a down right crime! Why do they always say a dog under a certain age can't have the 3 year? Just to make it sound good??
  15. Rits

    Rits Admin Administrative Staff Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Or the fact if you "miss" a 3 year they boost with a 1yr and then make you come back to get a 3 year the next year... I did that once a long time ago. Never again.
    • Wow x 1
  16. Lizbeli

    Lizbeli $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    Okay, my mind is spinning. My puppy is getting his first rabies shot in a couple of weeks. Is the first shot always a 1yr thing where they have to get a booster a year later or is that a gimmick? Can I do it every three years starting from his first rabies shot? My vet seems "vaccination happy."
  17. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    The 1st puppy Rabies Vaccine is always a 1yr Vaccine. Then 1yr from that date the 3yr Rabies Vaccine is given.
    Just don’t let your Vet give any other vaccine at the same time with the Rabies vac.
    The Rabies vac is the only one required by law.

    If you want a minimal vaccine schedule then follow Dr. Jean Dodd’s protocol. Print it out and take it to your vet and tell him this is the protocol you want to follow.
    You are the pet owner you have the final say.

    By W. Jean Dodds, DVM on July 18, 2016

    The following vaccine protocol is offered for those dogs where minimal vaccinations are advisable or desirable. The schedule is one I recommend and should not be interpreted to mean that other protocols recommended by a veterinarian would be less satisfactory. It’s a matter of professional judgment and choice.

    9 – 10 weeks of age
    Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV e.g. Merck Nobivac (Intervet Progard) Puppy DPV

    14 – 15 weeks of age
    Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV

    18 weeks of age
    Parvovirus only, MLV Note: New research states that last puppy parvovirus vaccine should be at 18 weeks old.

    20 weeks or older, if allowable by law
    Rabies – give 3-4 weeks apart from other vaccines Mercury-free (thimerosol-free, TF)

    1 year old
    Distemper + Parvovirus, MLV
    This is an optional booster or titer. If the client intends not to booster after this optional booster or intends to retest titers in another three years, this optional booster at puberty is wise.

    1 year old
    Rabies – give 3-4 weeks apart from other vaccines 3-year product if allowable by law; mercury-free (TF)

    Perform vaccine antibody titers for distemper and parvovirus every three years thereafter, or more often, if desired. Vaccinate for rabies virus according to the law, except where circumstances indicate that a written waiver needs to be obtained from the primary care veterinarian. In that case, a rabies antibody titer can also be performed to accompany the waiver request. Visit The Rabies Challenge Fund for more information.

    W. Jean Dodds, DVM
    Hemopet / NutriScan
    11561 Salinaz Avenue
    Garden Grove, CA 92843
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  18. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    But it's the same thing!? I don't get that at all! Why do vets insist that we get a "one" year first when its the same thing as a "3year"? Ugh, it just seems so like a game and I don't want to play!:tap: Cuz I hate when someone is trying to pull one over on me!

    How or where can we prove they are one in the same? I don't remember if I ever held my vet against the wall and asked him.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  19. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    I agree. But this is the protocol (1yr and 3yr Rabies) I believe that was set up buy the CDC and American Animal Hospital Association (AAHA), State and Local laws.
    I guess I will have to do some research on this question.

    AAHA - The Standard of Veterinary Excellence

    But I think its up now to 18 states that allow a Vaccine Medical Exemption for pets. If getting a medical exemption I would still do a Titer.

    Its strange that everywhere they don't accept a Rabies Titer.
    But if you are traveling out of the country or to a place where they don't have Rabies like Hawaii. You can have your pet Titered to show the level of Rabies Antibodies.
    There are 2 different Rabies Titer Tests. One (like the one I posted) just shows Less or Greater than 0.5 IU/ml which they considered protective.
    The other test (more expensive) for travel will show an actual number.

    • Informative Informative x 1
  20. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    Here is other info on vaccines which show Mimimum Duration of Immunity by Challenge and by Serology or Titer, legal requirement, AAHA which is American Animal Hospital Association and what your dog really needs.
    Under What Your Dog Really Needs is questionable on when to give a vaccine. Like for Parvo, Distemper and Adenovirus. It says 1 Vaccination at 16 weeks! Which I disagree with. I have seen other info of doing 2 vaccinations. 1 at 10-12 weeks then at 14-16 weeks.
    AAHA Guidlines have 3 vaccines. 6-8 weeks, 10-12 weeks then the 3rd between 14-16 weeks. Then I would wait 2 weeks after the last one and then Titer.

    • Informative Informative x 1

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