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My Grim, Fearful Prediction

Discussion in 'Doberman Talk and Discussions' started by Oh Little Oji, Jan 31, 2015.

  1. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    It's been concerning me the amount of Dobermans that I've seen around, and in media. Most of them are uncropped, (not to step on any toes here). Most of them don't look well bred.


    My concern is that our breed might be heading the direction of some of the other noble breeds such as Great Dane and Boxer.

    Cropping falls out of favor, which makes the breed feel more accessible to the general public. Poor breeding practices abound. Shelter Dobes are plenty.

    The breed may wind up increasingly in the hands of those looking for a sweet, goofy, fashionable pet. A trendy pet whether these folks realize it or not.

    This week at a doctor's office I picked up a business card for a dog walking service. One one side, not surprisingly, a Boxer (actually a pretty decent looking one). On the other side? Yep. A floppy-eared, small, slinky Doberman. BoxerDogWalkCard.JPG FlopDobieDogWalkCard.JPG
     
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  2. Gelcoater

    Gelcoater Expert ThreadCrapper $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    Don't get me started on skateboarders,Tad.

    :D
     
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  3. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Ok.
     
  4. FredC

    FredC Guest

    As cropping and docking become less and less favorable and unpopular you will see more and more unethical breeders getting into the game. Because it will be far cheaper to raise a Doberman puppy if they do not have to worry about the extra expenses involved in docking the tales, removing the dewclaws and cropping the ears not to mention aftercare. You have to remember that when you're considering a litter of puppies cropping alone can range in the thousand$. If cropping a puppy becomes illegal in the United States then it will be easy to raise a litter of Doberman puppies as it is to raise a litter of pitbull puppies.
     
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  5. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    So true and many have already taken great advantage of this as they charge just much from uncropped/untitled/ untested parents as we charge for quality puppies.
     
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  6. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I can tell you that the breeder of our current pup (and if you happen to be reading: I love you – you're awesome) is not into C/D. The reason they give is that they may compete internationally in IPO if one of their Dobes reaches that level. Also they're just a fan of the natural look and, I think, the European aspect to it. Also, the rudder effect of the tail was cited.

    My pup has his dewclaws :(.

    I was going to accept the natural ears, but that changed when the breeder found someone who could do the cropping for less than the $600 or so it was going to be. When that happened, all the buyers of the males opted for cropping.

    The tail is docked, but the females in the litter were not.

    Not to make this thread necessarily about C/D, just related information.
     
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  7. salisa826

    salisa826 Hot Topics Subscriber

    A had a gentleman ask me if it was legal here to do it. He knew it was illegal in other countries


    Lisa Mom of 2 human children and 1 furbaby
     
  8. shadash

    shadash Notable member

    I believe form follows function. Natural Dobermans work well with families. Cropped work very well as working dogs.

    The reason you're seeing more natural Dobermans in the news is two fold. First in several parts of the world cropping isn't legal. Second many owners of pet Dobermans don't want a cropped dog.

    Theres several people on this forum that feel very strongly about cropping. That's just how they are and they won't change. But they're not the only ones that can breed dogs and the marketplace will go where consumers want it to.
     
  9. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I'm compelled to wonder, then, what are the desires and motivations of those who seek out uncropped Dobermans. I understand yours, or at least I understand what is your stated position. I'm not saying I agree with it, but at least you seem like a good Doberman owner. Not that I'm setting myself up as judge; I just love the breed and want it preserved.

    So, if the breed is evolving, my point is I hope it doesn't wind up like what I perceive to be the state of the most commonly seen Boxer – a goofy, awkward ineffectual shell of what it once was.

    I continue to ask why people want a Doberman if they don't want what it was intended to be.
     
  10. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Your question is a good one. And opens a can of worms. :confused-alt:

    I'm not even sure I want to answer it. lol But my stab at an answer is that some people might say they want a Doberman for all the other qualities in a Doberman 'package'. Regardless of C/D being restricted. I've heard it said here on DCF many times over the years.

    While that's all well and good and well intended, I come from the 'old school' of Doberman standard. I am appalled that standards on ALL breeds are being torn down and people are letting it happen. I find it a shocking, sad state of affairs and something that I never thought would happen.

    As far as I'm concerned, in 20 years there will be no 'breeds' anymore. All dogs will resemble each other. :(

    There's your opened can of worms. :biggrin:
    [DOUBLEPOST=1422879524,1422879157][/DOUBLEPOST]Oh boy, the next thread I go to really said it all here:
    https://doberman-chat.com/community...e-comments-at-the-dog-show.22973/#post-395424
    Archer posted my thoughts very well. (post #11)
     
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  11. FredC

    FredC Guest

    Sad to me that some people think a natural Doberman is like a leper and to be avoided at all costs. I believe this attitude is what turned me from pro crop and dock to neutral. It's almost like being natural is worse than being Z factored. I find the vanity personally sad when I know what a fantastic awesome dog the Doberman truly is on the inside.
     
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  12. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Sorry, Von. I don't feel they are lepers at all. I just hate the standards are changing for all breeds. What's left if we don't have a standard?
     
  13. FredC

    FredC Guest

    I dont advocate a standard change. I advocate for choice.. I don't think anyone should be deprived of the greatest companion on earth simply because you believe C/D is mutilation. I think if my neighbor wants a natural doberman he should be able to get one.. Particularly if he has no intentions of competing in any KC events.. I know my opinion isnt popular but i dont hold KC's in high regard.. Just because the Doberman has a moderately healthy standard in comparison to other breeds, (in reality they are not) all breed standards are not created equal so i dont hold the standard in the same regard as some others here.. Its Just my opinion.. I really try not to force it down anyones throat others want to push down my throat.. How is this standard ethical in any way? And why should i regard it as gospel? Show me the ethics in this standard that produces a dog that cant even conceive without a surgery..
    I highly recommend anyone who believes a breed standard is the end all be all for Dogs should read the following... Rosettes to Ruin:
     
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  14. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Exactly!! Then we totally agree. :D That is my point too !

    Back in the 'day' (like 30 years ago or more maybe?) Everything was 'ok' on this front. Doberman standard was c/d and it was just a fact. If someone didn't want to do it, so be it. No big deal! I like it this way. You like it that way. And Vets still would crop if one wanted it. No one ever spoke of banning it, or that it was cruel or that the standard should change. If they didn't like it c/d, they just didn't do it and no words were ever exchanged. I love your dog and you love mine! Just a difference of opinion on what we like. But the standard was always the standard.
     
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  15. Gretchen_Red

    Gretchen_Red Hot Topics Subscriber

    I've been looking to rescue a male dobie around 2-3 years old. What I've learned is that about 90-95% of them are natural and they are some of the poorest bred dogs I've ever seen, in ANY breed! I know most champion breeders don't allow the dog to leave that way, which tells me, more than likely, that these are coming from crap breeders and going to homes where there shouldn't be a Doberman in the first place.

    I personally don't really care if someone wants a natural look but We are fighting an uphill battle for C/D so I'd prefer no breeder let a dog leave unC/unD. If you want a Doberman you should also want the look they're known for. Who cares if it looks scary or unwelcoming or w/e it is that you don't like. Like someone else said, by a lab, or a weimaramer, or a hound or something.

    I do know that my trainer says they've been seeing more and more Dobermans, they're making a come back and most of them are unC/unD. .
     
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  16. FredC

    FredC Guest

    I wonder how the other 3/4 of the worlds population feels about their natural Dobermanns being called crap bred dogs. People tend to forget the world isnt comprised of the USA solely.. as a matter of fact the C/D standard will be the Minority Defecto Doberman standard, if it isnt already.
     
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  17. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    One of the many problems of pet Dobermans in the US is that most of the pet owners do not want to take the time to learn how to post the ears correctly, they want the easy way of ownership, and do not want to have to deal with the ears possibably not standing correctly. They also do not want to spend what a correctly bred Doberman will cost. They want a Doberman without the responsibility of all that goes with the Doberman standard.

    I do feel that "choice" is important in the C/D issue, but not at the loss of quality breeding. Poorly bred non-C/D Dobermans beget more of the same, and the whole "look" of the dog is degraded as a whole. And I also feel that if C/D is banned that the breed will suffer in the long term, as the standard Doberman "look of eagles" will be lost, and that "Doberman image" is one of the major traits that made the breed what it is today.

    A natural born Doberman is fine to own as a personal choice, but the C/D Doberman will always stand out in the crowd and should remain a choice of those that wish to choose to continue with the standard. Thus, the standard should not be changed for any reason.
     
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  18. Gretchen_Red

    Gretchen_Red Hot Topics Subscriber

    I wasn't saying they all were crap bred. I was saying the ones in the rescues, most of who were natural, appeared to be crap bred. There are some very good breeders who will allow for natural.
    [DOUBLEPOST=1422894075][/DOUBLEPOST]@Dobie Wan Knobie said much better what I was trying to say :thumbsup2:
     
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  19. FredC

    FredC Guest

    Fair enough.. But wouldnt that be typical? who goes to a breeder, pound or rescue and asks for the poorest example af a breed to take home.. I would assume it be fairly obvious why a rescue would be stuck with the worst of the worst. What i do find interesting is that most people are leaning towards natural dogs nowadays because of the AR agenda convincing Joe Schmo that Clipping ears is cruel and unusual.. but rescues still to this day find it more difficult to rehome natural Dobermans. Which leads me to believe @Dobie Wan Knobie is on to something.
     
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  20. Gelcoater

    Gelcoater Expert ThreadCrapper $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    I can tell you my "reasons" for having them.
    Ignorance.Plain and simple.
    I didn't "seek" an uncropped dog but bought one,had she been cropped from the breeder I would have bought her anyways.
    Now,my reason for not getting her done,ignorance.
    It was my thought process she would be better off with natural ears considering the type of terrain and foliage we walk in with dogs,very high,foxtails,etc.I never even considered the "my neighbors will be scared of her with cropped ears" aspect,in fact I would prefer that.
    The old saying good fences make good neighbors is amplified by good fence with pointy eared dog behind it.;)
     
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