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Mondio & French Ring vs. Schutzhund

Discussion in 'Schutzhund and Ring Sports' started by ruffcountryrex, Aug 19, 2010.

  1. ruffcountryrex

    ruffcountryrex New Member

    Does anyone have a ringsport Dobe out there? I have a friend who is pretty convincing in getting me into ring sports. From what I see they are exclusive disciplines (schutzhund the dog should look at you, ring sport the dog looks out). It's little crap that I need to know now while I have a pup. I gotta say, the more I look at it, the easier it looks to have a good protection dog in the ring sports than in schutzhund. Thoughts?

     
  2. ruffcountryrex

    ruffcountryrex New Member

    Guess I should have paid closer atention. This should be in Schutzhund and ring sports section. Sorry. I don't know how to move it. Moderators? They would have kicked my ass for that in the Corps
     
  3. DoUrden

    DoUrden Novitiate

    Gotcha covered.

    I have not titled in FR or MR, but prefer it hands down over SchH! I for one don't like the idea of the dog constantly looking in my face. That's become a recent requirement. It wasn't always like that... :(
    MR, IMO, is the one sport of the three better suited for our breed.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Ingrid H

    Ingrid H Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    • Like Like x 2
  5. Silent Dobe

    Silent Dobe Well-Known Member

    Started my dog, Silence in ring. However, IMO it takes the power of the dog away through esquiving and pivoting, makes them gather and slow down upon entry. It's just my preference. I prefer a KNPV entry than a gathered one. Also, decoy corrects the dog and he is a training aide, not a "bad guy". Schutzhund allows you a better chance of actual protection (through extra training of course) than Ring. You could also look into PSA, too.
     
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  6. MeadowCat

    MeadowCat Well-Known Member

    I'm certainly no expert because I don't train in any of these, but do you have equal access to clubs for each? If I were going to start training I would want the most possible support, so I'd choose whichever sport had the better, more supportive club near me.

    One of our trainers competes with her Dobe in Mondio. She loves it and her dog seems to be progressing well. One of our other trainers is a Schutzhund person, but she has a Malinois. She said it can be difficult, at least around here, to get into a Schutzhund club with a Dobe because there's a mindset that they aren't capable of doing the work.
     
  7. Pitts

    Pitts Hot Topics Subscriber

    I compete in SchH, I have both GSD and Dobe, and do well with both. I have worked with both ring and SchH, and I personally prefer, the structure, obedience, and control in SchH. but any protection based sport is good for the dogs, as it is what they are bred to do. Just get out there and work with your dog.
     
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  8. von Cosack

    von Cosack Novitiate

    Sch. is an evaluation for German Shepard Dogs NOT dobermanns it's now a sport to compete in. The ring and any other sport is a SPORT not a reality based training program that features Protection for a person, home and property. The Dobermann was and some still are Personal Protection dogs which has absolutly NOTHING to do with games on a field. These exercises are for competitive people who are unable to perform in sports so they vicariously do this through their dogs. Now do the dogs enjoy this? Most do the sad situation is the dogs who don't excell their are those that get passed around and placed because they don't live up to expectation. Thats another talk for another time, as you can tell I'm not much for sports or conformation events I believe that a pup at 10 to 12 months should have very good OB then evaluations for base PP should take place and then training begins. The dog is brought to their level in Protection and the training lasts for their lives if sport is apart of Your life buy a dog that excells at it this way YOUR the weak link that needs a ton of work to live up to expectations that YOU will probably not succeed at.

    Sorry, didn't mean to go so off but if you read my signature you might understand why I feel the way I do. The fact they can do anothers breeds exercise shows you their capability but why not let them excell at what they were bred for. Stock cars don't run against formulas, the drivers know that, I wish the Dobermann breed drivers knew what their dogs were breed for too!!! von Cosack Dobermann PP Trainer 45 years!

    don't mind me just venting , then again I know my breed.
     
  9. Apollo

    Apollo Novitiate

    thats not complete true, SCH its a sport for the working breeds, ZTP is a Breeding evaluation VC
     
  10. von Cosack

    von Cosack Novitiate

    No where in my statement did I mention breeding Tina, evaluations are to determine what degree a young dog can begin PP training. Sch. was an evaluation for police dogs long before it was a Sport and the vast majority were GSD. Von
     
  11. Lord

    Lord Jr Member

    Yes Von is right on the last comment. Still Von it is a necessity to judge dogs by performance and breed from there
     
  12. Ingrid H

    Ingrid H Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Wow. If I were involved in the sport of schutzhund or any ring sport, I think I would be deeply offended by this broad blanket statement.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Apollo

    Apollo Novitiate

    agree, i was involved in sports my whole life and i performed very well VC :p and i think you need to be in kind of shape to compete in dog sports also lol. if you are not in shape how you wanna keep up with your dog ??
     
  14. von Cosack

    von Cosack Novitiate

    So there is a fire lite here good, Lord (I like talking to the lord , and then he talks back) yes YOU might need the approval from others to determine who's fit to breed but I don't. If a Sch. title impresses you why wouldn't a PP demo do the same? PP is what a Dobermann is all about not a GSD evaluation!!!! If someone is a breeder and can't see quality on their own why should they breed? When show people maintain a small gene pool to breed from because they don't want their written pedigrees to show a non-titled dog why aren't they at fault for allowing the gene pool to remain closed. They can't go outside a titled dog because so many today rely on their mentors to guide them and organilzational groups to confirm what they don't have...."an Eye for Conformation". Apollo I'm not talking about just physical challenges involved rather the spectacale the groups and clubs are a social event for people to gather with their dogs and perform and compete, I'm not saying theres something negative about that but if someone trains their dog to an equal or beyond the organizations standard why wouldn't that person s dog be equal? Because of a title? I don't need the akc to tell me quality and I damn sure don't need a sch title to appreciate a dog at work, I just sometimes think that Dobermann people should and could strive to gain the knowledge to have a strong opinion on a dogs value by observing that dog on their own not with the akc's of the worlds titles and a "sport" title to denote work ability. I learned all of this before I knew what the akc was and as far as Sch, no Dobermann owners were involved with that we were training Dobermanns to be by our SIDE for PP and house and property protection not hitting a sleeve so many times that they become sleeve nuts, or to maintain a bark for a HOLD that can border on obsession. These are my thoughts and my opinions so don't think my way is the highway, you do as you wish but remember what I'm saying inregards to titles and your (Dobermann owner) knowledge of whats worthy and what isn't. The folks relying on these so-called front and back titles aren't fairing very well now with their refusal to open the gene pool, the conformation stock gets weaker in character and the "working" (Sporting) dogs get worse in conformation just to try and hold on to character. A lot of this is because the so-called breeders can't stand on their own merits to recognize a quality dog on their own. If you look at the breeders of the past you will see dogs in their backlines without titles who were able to produce quality, these people had knowledge of the breed and the foresight to outsourse. And yes Ingrid this is a broad blanket statement but then again no ones evaluating their dogs for PP and training for it and thats what the breed was bred for, so maybe my feelings are hurt after putting 50 years into this breed and 46 as a pro trainer but no one considers my signature for all to read so if I want to write about my opinion on clubs titles and breeders I damn sure will. .........and I just did!!!! you don't need a judge to "train em up" or a title for them to be excellant! VON
     
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  15. Lord

    Lord Jr Member

    Hey Von like talking to you too. In my eyes when it comes to character (conformation is an other secondary thing) i like to see the sport, ZTP and a PP demo would be an extra plus to a stud i would like to use (if i was breeding). If your dog has an IPO3 to me it means that he HAS the correct fast and strong bite, and also of equal importance that his character didn't brake after this years of training.Try to do the sport with a weak dog. Dogs confidence is destroyed before you know it. So after years of pressure you will see a dog that stills wants to bite and work and has a "correct" bite. Thats all. Having what it takes for PP is a plus but the breed will be again to very selective hands. Yes a DOBERMANN cannot be handle by everyone. Maybe i can't handle it my self. You have to get used of some accident bites too on pressure. LOL
     
  16. Ingrid H

    Ingrid H Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    So just because your feelings are hurt by people not using the doberman for its original purpose (personal protection), you feel that you can trash other people who get involved in a sport Von Cossak? There are tons of people who are involved in dog sports as a hobby, and I can't see a thing wrong with that. At least they are getting out there, finding trainers, training their dogs and having fun. But you insult those people by saying they can't participate in sports themselves so they live vicariously through their dogs?

    Do you insult the men who participate in the Highland Games because they shouldn't be throwing silly poles around on a field when they should grow a pair and wage some real war? You are in a very small and elite group, VC but it seems that you are looking down your nose at the larger group of people who enjoy their sports.
     
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  17. Apollo

    Apollo Novitiate

    Sorry VC but i agree with Ingrid, i couldn't have put it better.
    Great Post Ingrid
     
  18. von Cosack

    von Cosack Novitiate

    Then why did you thank me Tina!!!! When I speak my mind on any forum theres always problems because I don't stutter and get straight to it without sugar coating anything. My opinion is based on my experience which covers years of training dogs and their people. The responce this post is getting reminds me of somewhere else, the responce seems to have bothered someone who admitts that she doesn't even participate in the events I mentioned but others might be hurt by my comments. Sounds like others from another forum that will go out of their way to start some BS conflict. This is why I've stayed away from the training threads and anything else that deals with a serious topic, theres always a greenie looking to defend or question someones opinion on topics they don't know anything about, never fails. Von.
     
  19. Apollo

    Apollo Novitiate

    because i respect your Opinion, now i can't thank you for that anymore ??? because i don't agree with you, means not that i don't respect or understad your View of things
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Lord

    Lord Jr Member

    Guys there is no reason to fight. there is truth in what VC says. Sport people change dogs like shirts. ALL the successful handlers train at time 5-6 dogs and get rid of them most of the time. To remind you, training is very hard, and also the dog you get rid of is not a pet anymore and you know when you give it away it wont last with the new owner for too long. HE IS RIGHT ABOUT THAT. So i can see his point made about those handlers. He doesnt mean you Ingrid that you do it for fun and no matter what you keep the dog. I am sure he means the real sport competitive people. VC knows what he talks about, he just puts too much passion and forgets that he talks also to people that are not BASTARDS, like a lot of show and sport field people are.

    As for PP i am not confident to do it with the dogs i have now. It is hard to stop them as it is.
     

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