Male on male aggression (unfixed)

[lyricmarie96]

Hi guys! So we are having some problems and I would REALLY appreciate any/all advice and tips. So we have a almost 2 year old male unfixed doberman (Duke), and a 2 1/2 year old male unfixed pit-mix (Saint). We have had both since puppies, and they have always got along extremely well. Almost too well, we have never had an issue with toys, food, bed space, etc. We live in a townhouse, and we have a neighbor RIGHT next door to us (our doors are literally 5 feet away from each other) that has a female puppy (Indi), about 9 months old. All three dogs play all of the time, at least once a day, and we watch Indi quite a bit. Indi is not fixed, and we have been assuming that she was going to have her first heat cycle sometime soon because the boys (Saint and Duke) have been showing her backside a little extra attention lately. We redirect them immediately and tell them no, and they listen to that very well. They have never tried to hump her either. Well, within the past 48 hours, my boys (Saint and Duke) have been EXTREMELY tense to each other. It just came on like a light switch all of the sudden. Saint will growl at the site of Duke, and vice versa. They are extremely stiff around each other, and it looks as if its almost on the verge of a fight. We separate, give lay down command, and they listen, but things are extremely tense between them. And to be honest, it seems as if Saint is the aggressor in this. He (excuse my language) just looks plain pissed when duke comes around. Like uncontrollable growling.


Does anyone think it is because Indi may be going into heat soon/now? Even now the boys are not disagreeing over an object. Neither has a toy when this happens, and there is no food/treats around. I am so nervous because I do not want them to get into a fight and start a cycle that will be difficult to end. Should we separate until her cycle is done since she is so close to us? Or should we muzzle Saint and keep on like usual? Saint is not used to being muzzled (I know, my fault for not having them comfortable in them), so I don't know if that'll add to the tension. Indi's owner said she plans to get her fixed after her first heat cycle, but in the meantime what can we do to keep this at a minimum?

 

[Kaiser2016]

Well this is indeed an interesting problem. Lots of people will have suggestions, just not me

I hope your neighbor follows through and eventually fixes her dog otherwise it will be tense living. I have one boy intact and there is an intact female around my neighborhood somewhere. We know she's in heat when he gets more frothy around his mouth. I can't imagine what it must be like right next door and with 2 males competing for mating rights

 

[Tropicalbri's]

I would suggest to your neighbor to go the the health food store and get some chlorophyll tablets or liquid to give to her female. This will lessen the smell the boys are savoring and going after each other about.
SSA is a real problem especially with two strong and dominating breeds. I would most definitely get an animal behaviorist and trainer involved in this situation because if it continues to escalate you will have a very serious problem on your hands. There is the risk of one killing the other if it gets bad enough.
They are maturing and establishing pack order and they may never get along again. This is why you need a professional to intervene and guide you on how to deal with this and if it can be worked through.

You may end up with a crate and rotate situation. It is not unusual for two males to battle over a female in heat and that is where the trouble comes in so please keep them separated until you find a trainer (experienced with both breeds) to get this resolved for your safety as well as theirs.

 

[lyricmarie96]

Well this is indeed an interesting problem. Lots of people will have suggestions, just not me

I hope your neighbor follows through and eventually fixes her dog otherwise it will be tense living. I have one boy intact and there is an intact female around my neighborhood somewhere. We know she's in heat when he gets more frothy around his mouth. I can't imagine what it must be like right next door and with 2 males competing for mating rights

Haha! Thanks! Yes, we have noticed a lot of frothing at the mouth recently as well.

 

[lyricmarie96]

I would suggest to your neighbor to go the the health food store and get some chlorophyll tablets or liquid to give to her female. This will lessen the smell the boys are savoring and going after each other about.
SSA is a real problem especially with two strong and dominating breeds. I would most definitely get an animal behaviorist and trainer involved in this situation because if it continues to escalate you will have a very serious problem on your hands. There is the risk of one killing the other if it gets bad enough.
They are maturing and establishing pack order and they may never get along again. This is why you need a professional to intervene and guide you on how to deal with this and if it can be worked through.

You may end up with a crate and rotate situation. It is not unusual for two males to battle over a female in heat and that is where the trouble comes in so please keep them separated until you find a trainer (experienced with both breeds) to get this resolved for your safety as well as theirs.

For the meantime, we have moved one to a family members house to make sure we don’t escalate to a fight. I know that theoretically neutering is not suppose to affect aggression, but do you have any experience with that? I was talking to a friend who had similar issues and he swears that as soon as he neutered his male the problems went away.

 

[Kaiser2016]

Awesome that you moved one away!

 

[Regalis]

Neutering is very unlikely to help. If someone says it did, they got incredibly lucky.

Beyond that - I agree with what Bri said. You may be stuck with a crate and rotate situation. Unfortunately, both breeds are highly known for SSA. Just because they were fine before doesn't really mean anything. It's not uncommon for SSA to not show up until 2-3 years of age.

 

[Tropicalbri's]

I know that theoretically neutering is not suppose to affect aggression, but do you have any experience with that?

If they develop these behaviors, neutering will not change that behavior and could very well exacerbate it.
If you chose to neuter one or both I think they are both developed physically to not experience the issues associated with an early neuter.
The female coming into heat may have started a competition between them that may have developed earlier but they had not acted on it.
I would definitely get an animal behaviorist to assess them and go from there.
Sometimes they just can’t be together and a lot will depend on how you correct them when it does happen. I have found if you completely remove them from each other for an extended period of time immediately after a huff up session it only enforces their behavior.
They need to be corrected but they also need to part from each other with a positive ending before being separated for an extended time otherwise their last memory will be of their aggression with each other.
I have a male and female that fought and it took 7mo of crate and rotate before I learned how to handle them properly to be together without fighting and it took both the trainer and behaviorist to help me learn to be a strong leader.

 

[lyricmarie96]

If they develop these behaviors, neutering will not change that behavior and could very well exacerbate it.
If you chose to neuter one or both I think they are both developed physically to not experience the issues associated with an early neuter.
The female coming into heat may have started a competition between them that may have developed earlier but they had not acted on it.
I would definitely get an animal behaviorist to assess them and go from there.
Sometimes they just can’t be together and a lot will depend on how you correct them when it does happen. I have found if you completely remove them from each other for an extended period of time immediately after a huff up session it only enforces their behavior.
They need to be corrected but they also need to part from each other with a positive ending before being separated for an extended time otherwise their last memory will be of their aggression with each other.
I have a male and female that fought and it took 7mo of crate and rotate before I learned how to handle them properly to be together without fighting and it took both the trainer and behaviorist to help me learn to be a strong leader.

Interesting! When working with your trainer and behaviorist what was recommended as far as correcting them? We were giving a firm no and making them go lay down in their beds (in the same room but on opposite sides) before Duke left this morning to a relatives. It was a huge dilemma deciding if he should stay or go. We didn’t want to have it escalate to an actual fight without seeing what else could be done, but we also didn’t want to separate for too long and make it so they had bad memories surrounding it.

 

[Tropicalbri's]

When working with your trainer and behaviorist what was recommended as far as correcting them?

They made me walk them together and correct immediately any change in body language that was negative. I had to keep them within 3 feet of each other while giving commands. The corrects on change in body language have to be immediate so they know.
Since they are in 2 homes now, I would find a neutral place away from the aroma of the female and walk them together. Get someone familiar with them to walk one with you. Tire them out completely and continue to do this every day. You will see then if it’s just the in heat female causing the stress or if they really are in a negative situation with each other.
This info is not meant as a substitute for professionals evaluating them. Your energy has to be both calm and assertive while around them.

@Doberman Gang is the one I would get advice from as he is well schooled in the breeds and is a very experienced trainer.

 

[Doberman Gang]

I typically don’t like to give too much advice without actually seeing what is going on. What is your reaction or response when one of your dog growls or barks at the other? How do you handle it or correct the situation? Do you get nervous or frightened when your dogs are reactive? Do they have there own kennels to keep them seperated if needed?
The good thing is they may just be showing some dominance but you can diffuse it quickly if you are paying attention. You have to show them both you are in charge and that behavior is not acceptable. Not necessarily SSA. But if they start fighting it can become an on going thing so best to diffuse it before it happens. You may want to get an experience trainer who can give you an actual assessment.

 

[lyricmarie96]

I typically don’t like to give too much advice without actually seeing what is going on. What is your reaction or response when one of your dog growls or barks at the other? How do you handle it or correct the situation? Do you get nervous or frightened when your dogs are reactive? Do they have there own kennels to keep them seperated if needed?
The good thing is they may just be showing some dominance but you can diffuse it quickly if you are paying attention. You have to show them both you are in charge and that behavior is not acceptable. Not necessarily SSA. But if they start fighting it can become an on going thing so best to diffuse it before it happens. You may want to get an experience trainer who can give you an actual assessment.

I of course try to stay calm, but I would be lying if I said I didn't snap at Saint since he seems to be the aggressor in this situation. Would it be wise to bring Duke back tomorrow and meet somewhere outside where we could see how they are back together away from home? And yes to the crates as well. They are not used as much any more, but both are familiar and would be comfortable in them. Should I put Saint (the aggressor and older one) in the cage first, and leave Duke (the younger more submissive one) out when first coming back into the house? Or vice versa?

 

[lyricmarie96]

Also, we are definitely in the process of finding a trainer/behaviorist, but this has come on so quickly we were not prepared at all! Thanks for all suggestions and tips guys!