Katyusha and Zastava

[Katyusharocket]

The two Dobergirls have always made good playmates. There are times when Zastava wants to play more hours of the day than Katyusha does, and Katyusha corrects Zastava for this, earning praise from me for standing up for her own interests. Very seldom, if ever, have I seen them share the couch when I am not on it.

But we had an episode yesterday, and it freaked us all out.

I was home on my afternoon break to let them out, and everything was as normal as could be. Good outdoor play, a half meal for Zastava. Bathroom break. I always take 15 seconds or so with each dog individually to give them pets and tell them that I love them before returning to work.

Katyusha was on the couch, Zastava standing on the floor in front of it, Katyusha directly in front of me and Zastava to my left. I was getting my face close to Katyushas, and Zastava came in towards Katyusha's face. Katyusha lunged at her hard, missed her, but nearly got me by accident. I was scared to the point that if dogs can smell fear, they'd have smelled it. Katyusha immediately sat back into the couch cushions. Zastava did not move away to backtalk Katyusha from a safe distance, she stayed right by me. Katyusha was apologetic, to say the least. She felt absolutely awful. I took friendly fire from Katyusha once before, and she actually connected but it didn't scare me like this time. I did not praise Katyusha this time. This time I felt that the transgression was not worth the dealt punishment attempt. I just let her know she is loved, and the other two as well, and told them not to kill each other or burn the house down till I got home next.

Since then, I have been watching the couch camera like a hawk, and they are now always on it together. Sometimes butt to butt and sometimes one resting her head on the other one's sleeping butt. Peaceful as could be. Before the episode, Katyusha could always be seen on camera on the couch, Zastava sleeping on my bed upstairs. Now they share the couch with easy interactions, not bothering each other, sometimes relaxing together.

I mostly wanted to share the experience with what I have perceived as the near term changes. But if anyone has anything to contribute, I'll be happily reading that.

 

[JanS]

Wow that must have been worrisome to wonder if SSA is setting in. I'm glad it sounds like they're back to normal now and that you're okay.

 

[Katyusharocket]

Wow that must have been worrisome to wonder if SSA is setting in. I'm glad it sounds like they're back to normal now and that you're okay.

It was worrisome as far as SSA. I have that on my mind quite a lot. But if this is how they solved that, then perfect! of course, Z is a little young to look at solving that, but k isn't.....

I am really happy to note here that they finally share the same couch even when I am not on it.

 

[MyBuddy]

Since I've never had two Dobermans at the same time I can't offer any advice. But I was going to ask you what you thought it was? Do you think that was jealousy?

 

[Katyusharocket]

But I was going to ask you what you thought it was? Do you think that was jealousy?

In the moment, I thought to myself that Katyusha was over the top annoyed with her little sister's relentless drive to play. And perhaps in this case, unrightly annoyed, as Zastava didn't even touch her. But having had a day and a half to think about how everything unfolded, jealousy was almost certainly at play, too.

Also I felt in the moment that they both had a realization that, okay, if this is how we relate and respond to each other and dad is the one who gets hurt for it, then we need to change that, and I sense those changes have most certainly been made.
I've seen this or similar a dozen times since that episode. I seldom or never saw this before it.

It's like I feel that they really solved something through it.

Time will tell. I'm watching them like a hawk since that moment, but I am pleased with what I have seen.

 

[Ravenbird]

You might consider watching for resource guarding. I can't quite see the position everyone was in although you described it well. But my first thought was that K was telling Z that you belong to her, and to back off. You were close to K's face and Z was coming in toward K's face, sounds like K was saying "I'm about to get my goodbye kiss and I'm not sharing it". When you leave, K is fine with sharing the couch because the couch wasn't the issue.

Asha has snapped at Reckless maybe 3 times in almost 5 years. Once it was when I was cutting up treats and Asha was watching and Reckless came into the kitchen to check it out too. Twice it was when post-heat and she was in nesting/puppy/false pregnancy stage and Reckless just innocently walked by Ashas bed, swinging her head over toward her to sniff as she walked by. Asha lunged/snarled/snapped, I was in the room and yelled at her. She was resource guarding her bed & space and Reckless did immediately jump back, startled out of her wits. Bottom line, I told Asha in no uncertain terms that it was uncalled for. Dogs will be dogs and this is how they tell each other how to act, but you are the leader that they ultimately look up to in the family. If a strong family dynamic exists in humans, the big sister won't bully the little sister, as the understand that they'd be in trouble with Mom or Dad. If parents are loosely structured and leave too much for the kids to work out for themselves then their can be lots of sibling squabbles.

Z is now 6 months, pretty early for SSA, but approaching her teenage/young adult phase and K may be deciding that Z is old enough to start handing out more serious threats since she's no longer a "toddler". Chances are it was a one time thing, but do keep an eagle eye on the situation and keep in mind that RG can be you, toys, chews, or space like the couch. Just because they've been good eating or chewing bones together the past few months doesn't mean it will always be that way. From day one we have fed Asha & Reckless in two different rooms, they chew bones alone unless we are all sitting on the porch together and if we leave them both at home one is closed up in a bedroom and the other has the rest of the house.

 

[Ddski5]

First off, I think you are courageous for posting this. Most folks wouldn’t post this situation and ask for thoughts.

My thoughts in which I am sure you already know:
There is a pecking order/hierarchy in the animal kingdom and Z is mature enough to instill it, esp when a (you) high value treat is offered. K is still young and prob aloof to the world, just wants to get her high value treat also.

K is getting bigger and growing and possibly sees Z encroaching on her matriarchal position.

It is good that K recognized her aggressiveness and appeared to be apologetic. It is good that Z did not retaliate. A major problem will be when Z rebels and retaliates back…

I think it is fantastic that they both share the couch with each other. To me it says they both have grown past the situation and are good to go with each other. Whether or not that is K letting up on Z or Z has acknowledged her inferior position in the chain, that remains to be seen.

Again, just my thoughts- not meant to belittle.

I was getting my face close to Katyushas, and Zastava came in towards Katyusha's face. Katyusha lunged at her hard, missed her, but nearly got me by accident.

I fricking love my Dobermans as much as my daughters. My wife will tell you that I will die a lonely man on side of a hill but I will have a Doberman with me. But we tend to humanize our animals and I am 100% guilty of this.

You/me/we really should not present our face around theirs or get close to their necks. This is a sign/position of dominance and the sweetest animal in the world can go instinctive and lash out biting. I just had a coworker that his son was bitten on his face by his loyal lab of 8yrs and then afterwards the lab acted like nothing happened, wagging tail acting subdued. Sure it could be medical- thyroid but still…

Only reason I bring this up is because of your safety and to understand that when the instinct of dominance hierarchy or an irritated pain response presents, and the animal lashes out….I don’t think it’s a choice but more of an instinctive surge. It immediately happens and then afterwards, they recognize what happened and become subdued or appear apologetic.

What I would do?
Do exactly what you are doing. Go along as business as usual but keep a heightened alert of the potential situation erupting. Look forward into the scene and recognize it happening before it happens. You being greatly self aware and forward thinking is going to help immensely.

Good luck and thinking about you, K and Z.

 

[Katyusharocket]

Thank you for your responses, they are actually quite helpful. Here are some of the reasons why:

You might consider watching for resource guarding. I can't quite see the position everyone was in although you described it well. But my first thought was that K was telling Z that you belong to her, and to back off. You were close to K's face and Z was coming in toward K's face, sounds like K was saying "I'm about to get my goodbye kiss and I'm not sharing it". When you leave, K is fine with sharing the couch because the couch wasn't the issue.

Never would I have framed this as resource guarding, even though I was right in the room, and I should have. It just goes to show me, and anyone, really, that we may be very well aware that something exists and even if it was the actual problem, we can remain blind to it as far as applying it to our pack. Getting some different viewpoints has opened up that blind spot for me, and I appreciate it.

but you are the leader that they ultimately look up to in the family

From day one we have fed Asha & Reckless in two different rooms

This may be backwards thinking, but I have always chosen to feed them in a small room (our kitchen). The reason I do it that way (again this may be backwards thinking) is that when they eat, I am there. I am there to lead how mealtime goes and to help them each know that their allotment is safe because I am there, and that just because you might eat the fastest, you are in no way entitled to get in your sibling's food, or even get close enough to stare at them while they finish eating. None of the 3 dogs are allowed to approach each other, even remotely, until the last one finishes and I say ok, then they like to check each other's empty bowls. I also feel this practice is a twice daily reminder that someone around here is in charge, and it ain't you, and I will protect your resource. All of our mealtimes are peaceful, though, so, if it is backwards thinking, I possibly have backwards dogs too

Just because they've been good eating or chewing bones together the past few months doesn't mean it will always be that way.

Another needed reminder to me that they are, and I am, dynamic. Things can and probably will change over time, hopefully guided for the better.

I think it is fantastic that they both share the couch with each other. To me it says they both have grown past the situation and are good to go with each other. Whether or not that is K letting up on Z or Z has acknowledged her inferior position in the chain, that remains to be seen.

I think it's fantastic too! I always kind of wished that they would share the couch, as that would be a reasonable signal that they were comfortable with each other on a deeper level than just ruff-housing. I just didn't know this episode, or one like it, would be what brought them both there.

You/me/we really should not present our face around theirs or get close to their necks. This is a sign/position of dominance and the sweetest animal in the world can go instinctive and lash out biting.

You make a great point here. Surely I can find a way to give them a good-bye in a way that they can relate to and it will mean even more to them than what I have been doing.

I can say that since that one time, when I am getting ready to go back to work, Z stays clear of either of the other dogs until it's her turn, and I think that is going to benefit everyone here.

First off, I think you are courageous for posting this. Most folks wouldn’t post this situation and ask for thoughts.

this is actually the safest community I know on or off line, There is over 260 years (only the ones we counted, but many, many more) of Dobering here, by people who don't judge or ridicule when someone is needing help going through something for the first time and everyone is so helpful and polite, I'm really thankful for you all, even when I just need to see another perspective and take my blinders off.

Again, just my thoughts- not meant to belittle.

Don't worry, you didn't belittle. This was all good stuff that I can actually put into use, and quite easily.

 

[Ravenbird]

This may be backwards thinking, but I have always chosen to feed them in a small room (our kitchen). The reason I do it that way (again this may be backwards thinking) is that when they eat, I am there. I am there to lead how mealtime goes and to help them each know that their allotment is safe because I am there, and that just because you might eat the fastest, you are in no way entitled to get in your sibling's food, or even get close enough to stare at them while they finish eating. None of the 3 dogs are allowed to approach each other, even remotely, until the last one finishes and I say ok, then they like to check each other's empty bowls. I also feel this practice is a twice daily reminder that someone around here is in charge, and it ain't you, and I will protect your resource. All of our mealtimes are peaceful, though, so, if it is backwards thinking, I possibly have backwards dogs too

It's not backwards thinking at all. You have thought it out and you are mindful and you are staying in the room to watch & prevent trouble. Our dogs are actually extremely polite to each other when they each have a bone on the porch and we're sitting there. One dog might get up and leave and the other dog goes to see if that bone left alone is for the taking and we say "leave it" and that dog goes back to their own rug & bone. It's those quick surprises (like what started your initial conversation) that I want to avoid, and learned that the best way to prevent it is to manage things where it can't possibly happen. Plus Reckless is not my dog, and no way no how would I ever be able to forgive myself if Asha hurt her because of my mismanagement.

 

[Katyusharocket]

Just wanted to update: This is pretty much the relationship I am seeing form them when I'm not home all the time. It's so frequent that Zastava wasn't with Katyusha on the couch briefly yesterday morning so I had to check some history on other cameras to figure out that she had gone back to bed for a short spell (I was kind of panicking about it). I hope this bodes well for their future as housemates.

Something I have changed is the frequency of feedings for them all. As long as I choose to feed Z more than twice per day (till her growth levels off), they will all get fed the extra times too. Just for unified approach from me.

 

[Katyusharocket]

So little Z pup has had a limp since Friday evening at the dog park. I know, several of you warned me about the pitfalls of the dog park. . This could be one of them. In any case, this morning her limp was notably worse than yesterday's waking up time, so I messaged the clinic today and she will be seen as a "drop-off" tomorrow. A regular appointment is 8 days out, but they will take unforseen circumstances as a morning drop-off, and get her the evaluation she needs when there are a few minutes in the day to do so.

To the original theme of the thread, these two continue to make excellent playmates, matching energies at nearly every turn in life.

 

[JanS]

I hope everything is okay with her. Keep us posted.

 

[MyBuddy]

Did you see anything in particular that looked like it would have caused that limp? A collision? Or maybe it didn't even happen there?

 

[Katyusharocket]

Did you see anything in particular that looked like it would have caused that limp? A collision? Or maybe it didn't even happen there?

No, I didn't see or hear anything. No yelp, no loud thud. I assume it happened there because she was playing rough with her friend, Nixie, and they do lots of wrestling. However, it could have easily happened at home, the way Katyusha and her get to horsing around too. Her limp is deep and looks pretty painful but then she will look at Katy and start with her or run up the stairs to lay in bed. Maybe it's more a weakness in a muscle rather than painful? Hopefully one of her doctors can figure out the correct treatment plan for her. They're pretty good at our clinic so I'm optimistic.

 

[Katyusharocket]

they called and asked if I was ok with her being sedated so they can get an x-ray of that RF leg. That should be pretty definitive, I hope. In my limited experience with these 2 girls, they just don't seem to complain or do anything vocal when they get hurt, you just end up finding out after the fact.

 

[Two Dobes]

Hardest part of being a doberman owner; they are so stoic! They just don't complain, or show pain....until they do. Then it usually is a complete mystery where/how/when.
I love to see them sharing the couch, and I was wondering if the 'lash out' was because you were there, and K was not going to share you. Saw that in one of the responses too. It's great that they are working out their rank, and I believe they do enjoy having another to share their days with when home alone

 

[Katyusharocket]

her vet called and said they didn't get any pain response from her when articulating her joints. The x-ray showed some area on the surface of her one bone that would cause irritation/inflammation. He said he could legit call it growing pains. GROWING PAINS.

He said as long as she is eating, drinking, running around like an idiot, to just let it be. If she stops doing those things, He would use a couple days worth of anti-inflammatory for her.

Wow, but, at least I know and I did my due diligence.

 

[JanS]

He said he could legit call it growing pains.

I wondered if it could possibly be Pano.

 

[Katyusharocket]

Pano.

This word might be short for the longer word he used to describe what he saw on the one bone? i think it started with a P.

 

[Rits]

Growing pains is panosteitis. It'll be important to limit her activity while it heals for the inflammation to go down, so no rough housing or playing. Crate and rotate if possible.