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I’m at the end of my rope PlZ HELP

Discussion in 'Doberman Health Issues and Questions' started by The dude, Oct 6, 2019.

  1. The dude

    The dude Jr Member

    2yr old Black and Tan male, house dog, raw fed since 12 weeks old. He has licked, chewed, and scratched none stop for over a month on his entire body basically anywhere he can get his mouth on, focusing a lot on the legs feet and chest area. He’s been to 2 different vets (one holistic and one regular vet). Regular vet literally looked at him for not 1 second (not a very thorough exam imo) and wanted to give him steroids and apaquil or cytopoint injection. I researched all those options and the side effects of all those meds were a no for me. So we see a holistic vet and she comes off with some crazy ideas like giving him 7 Zyrtec a day, and a few other things can’t remember exactly. Says it’s either food or environmental allergies, says to cut out chicken and see if it helps, gives us a medicated bath and some powder probiotics and liquid probiotics to put on his food. She also did acupuncture on him. She also wanted to do cytopoint and steroids and once again I don’t feel comfortable doing that so we pass on that.

    Fast forward a month later and the itching hasn’t stopped. We keep a clean house, wash his bedding almost everyday. We keep a clean t shirts on him to keep him from scratching and licking to a minimum. No chicken for close to 3 weeks. No yeasty smell ever, he actually has no smell to him at all. We bath him in the medicated bath and we spray him down with vinegar etc. also have tried a tee tree oil bath and I seriously think it made him worse. Been giving him 3 Benadryl twice a day for a while on and off (doesn’t seem to help) this dog has never shown signs of allergies and has never been sick a day in his life! Healthy as a horse head to toe! So I’m thinking whatever is wrong with him can’t be much, nothing has changed in his life or habits.

    He does and always has taken Bravecto and interceptor. I’ve been reading up in horror stories on both of those meds and that has me wondering if they could be the problem as well.

    We have ran out of options, if anyone can help please I’m ready to try anything at this point.
    • Empathetic Empathetic x 8
  2. Viemarangelrock

    Viemarangelrock $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Oh man, I’m so sorry you guys are going through this. It must be so frustrating.

    So just the last month? Have you changed laundry cleaner? I see you wash his bed almost daily. That’s a lot of washing.
    Allergies to laundry detergent are pretty common. If you look at the powdered and liquid forms, the chemicals used to make those two products are quite different, you may be able to avoid allergens by switching from powder detergent to liquid, or from liquid to powder.
    It could be the enzymes or even a detergent that is dye and fragrance-free may alleviate his reaction, if it is indeed a laundry detergent allergy.

    I’ve very little experience of allergies in my dogs so I’m hoping other members will reply soon. Just have a think about the detergent!
    • Agree Agree x 2
  3. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I'm not one to medicate without knowing what I'm treating. I would think it would be a good idea to find the source and avoid it if possible before throwing meds with those kinds of side effects. Allergy testing can become expensive pretty quick though. Maybe they were considering that? I say give me all the options and let me decide.

    Seasons are beginning to change, have you noticed the pollen counts? I would research the top allergens and try eliminating one at a time, if possible. Keep track of the pollen counts and see if he is worse on certain days the a particular count is high.

    Is he worse after this are given?

    How much does he weigh? The dosage should be 1mg/lb.

    I don't envy you. This can take a awhile to get figured out and sometimes you can't.
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Rodyboy

    Rodyboy Jr Member

    I would try a clean and clear laundry soap and a softener without fragrance. Wash bed items once a week and limit baths. Our vet suggested benedryl twice a day, morning and evening. Buddy is on lamb and rice and out of six dobermans all had some form of allergy, grass, food, etc. I used the lamb and brown rice on all of them due also to digestive issues in dobes, and it really helped. All of them lived long dobe lives and none had DCM. Nothing is a quick fix but I agree on the steroids, it is scary. I don't like drugs but Buddy has allergy to nickel, oh brother, and some flea meds, contact dermatitis. Can only say what we did, your dog is your dog, only you know best what to do. Our Buddy turned two in April. The issues have been resolved for now HaHa.
  5. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I know you said you spray him down with vinegar, I just thought maybe this thread may help you, if you haven't read it already.

    Apple cider vinegar
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. The dude

    The dude Jr Member

    We have used the same detergent for years it’s scent and color free. We actually stopped using it when the itching started. We now do vinegar in the washing machine only, and air dry afterwards.

    He’s never had a reaction to the meds (bravecto, interceptor) as far as itching is concerned, but anytime he takes them he will usually feel sick and down for a day or two. Sometimes he will throw up. He only get those meds during the warm summer months when heart worms and fleas can be a problem. The last time he’s had either has been approx 1.5 months ago.
    • Like Like x 1
  7. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    This can be so frustrating. And something I have yet to go through. But I've seen it on this board over the years and it takes time to single down the culprit. Sometimes it's a process of elimination. Is there anything, anythin, that you can think of that is new in your dog's life? Any sprays on the lawns? Maybe someone is feeding him something you don't know of? It seems like you're doing everything right in trying to figure this out. But it's so unusual that it just started. Usually people have trouble throughout the dog's life. When it starts suddenly, it just makes you think that there has to be something that changed. I'm sure you've given this many, many hours of thought. Sometimes it's so obvious that you don't see it.

    Do you do any correction with him when he licks? A lot of members talk about the sound of our dogs licking and how it kind of grates on our nerves. I get my dog to stop just by a correction of, "No licking!" I know that if you don't stop them, sometimes it can turn into a compulsion.

    I will be following your thread closely and hope someone can give you more advice to a happy ending! Good luck to you and please keep us informed.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I don't like the sound of that! Is there something else you're vet can give him?

    @Tropicalbri's ??
    • Agree Agree x 3
  9. Viemarangelrock

    Viemarangelrock $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Can you guys access ‘Billy No Mates’ in the US?
    It’s a natural effective way to repel mites, ticks and fleas. It’s a dried herb mix of mint, seaweed, fenugreek, neem leaves and lemon balm and you simply add it to your dogs/cats food.

    7F382AEE-71CE-47A8-BFDD-C5274D951B20.jpeg 34F10541-81EE-49BC-AA54-44FD1A20DC18.jpeg

    Because it can take up to 6 weeks to get into their system, we start using Billy No Mates from around Easter onwards for a problem-free summer.
  10. The dude

    The dude Jr Member

    Thanks for everyone who has responded so far. I can’t think of one single thing that has changed other than the seasons. But he’s 2 so he has already been thru all the season changes before. I will try and get some of of the “billy no mates” if I can source it here in he US. He gets a decently diverse and monitored diet. I get a lot of his food from a lady who farm raises natural. He does get some store bought stuff but it’s never been a problem. The t shirts help simply bc he can’t get to the areas to lick/bite/scratch. But as soon as the shirt comes off when we go for a walk or just to change into a new clean one he will install go to scratching the chest with his back foot. And yes the licking noise! OMG so annoying lol me and the wife just bust out laughing sometimes bc it get so loud and drags on so long. I mean what can ya do but laugh at times. But the itching has effected his sleep. He gets up in the middle of the night and wants me to let him outside and then he will go from the living to the bedroom periodically and sleep. (He has two beds both identical, one in living room and one in our bedroom).

    If it’s yeast everyone says you will smell it more than likely. But he has no smell to him whatsoever especially since he’s raw fed. The vet did say If it’s seasonal that when it starts to frost and get real cold that the problem should go away. It’s been unusually hot and dry in Ky for this time of year. I’m praying for rain and cold weather to come so we can see if that helps the situation.
  11. Tropicalbri's

    Tropicalbri's $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I would not give Bravecto. It is really harsh on the stomach and causes neurological responses like head tremors.

    I tried Bravecto and Simparica with my dobes. Both were nauseous, itchy and had head tremors. The mildest version of flea and tick meds is Credelio.
    It only takes one flea bite to start a cascade of itchiness and reactive responses.
    I use Nexguard and Heartgard. I only give Heartgard every 6 wks. Wondercide is a great product.
    I only use Nexgard when I know ticks are in the area, otherwise I use a spray of essential oils and coconut oil as the carrier oil mixed with water. I spray them before a walk and sometimes during the walk depending on longevity of initial spray.

    I am going to say something I would not normally recommend but you may want to get a Cytopoint injection just to stop the itch scratch cycle and give him some relief. I would NOT use Apoquel.
    Be sure to give probiotics and look at label to ensure there are not additives to it like Fructooligiosaccharides, Silicon Dioxide and Maltodextrin.

    I have seen extremely itchy dogs come in where their skin is raw from chewing and scratching and just one injection of Cytopoint stopped it.
    Of course we had to dispense antibiotics due to broken skin.

    Owners went all natural in their homes with no aerosol sprays, no candles or diffusers and started using vinegar to clean.
    We recommend using 1/2 to 1 cup vinegar (white) to the rinse water of laundry. Use it in mop water and as a spray (vinegar + H2O) for kitchen counters.

    When they came back for a 3wk, 6wk, and 12 wk followup, the dog had completely ceased scratching and needed no further medical intervention.
    This does not happen for every dog unfortunately but stopping the itch, scratch cycle is key.

    Check the manufacturer label to see if his bedding has Kapok in the stuffing. If so many animals and people are allergic to it.
    Also any stuffed toys he has, check label for the type of stuffing.

    Another thing is perfumes, colognes and lotions you may use on your body can cause allergic reactions.
    What ingredients are in his shampoo. Natural label does not equal certified organic shampoo.

    Is your yard or home treated monthly by an exterminator or do you put down treatments?
    What plants, grass etc is he exposed to?

    It is a frustrating process of elimination. Zyrtec sometimes works far better for itching in dogs than Benadryl, so it might be worth trying.

    Edit: To add to this post is allowing your dog to lick your legs when getting out of the shower. No matter how much you rinse there is still a residue of the product you use to bathe yourself.
    My twins tried to do this and licking the tub. I had to halt this behavior immediately as it can cause an allergic reaction.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
    • Informative Informative x 2
    • Like Like x 1
  12. The dude

    The dude Jr Member

    I’m all for trying Zyrtec, but how many per day? He’s 75lbs. The hollistic vet said 7 twice a day? That seems kooky to me. What do ppl normally give? Also cytopoint I think Is much better than apuaquil. But the regular vet said he would need cytopoint every 4-6 weeks maybe get away with 8 weeks and possibly forever. The hollistic vet said once a year lol. So who’s right lol? I really hate to be skeptical but I’m leery of both vets and I am in no way a know it all and think I’m smarter than ppl type lol. Anyone recommend good vets in KY?
  13. Tropicalbri's

    Tropicalbri's $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    That is dangerous! Some vets want to do a loading first dose but our clinic will not do that high dosage mainly because of causing toxicity to the kidneys. One of the reported side effects of Zyrtec is urine retention. If the dog has a kidney problem before receiving Zyrtec then giving this medication could be disastrous.
    Did your vet do a Catalyst 5, 10, 17 bloodwork and urinalysis before suggesting Cytopoint or Zyrtec? If not that SHOULD be done to make sure they are treating a healthy dog with blood and urine analysis all WNL.

    Zyrtec is designed for 2 types of allergies.

    1. Allergic Dermatitis (contact dermatitis)

    2. Atopic Dermatitis (inhalant allergies)

    Dosing for Allergic Dermatitis is 0.5mg/lb
    Every 12 hrs.

    Dosing for Atopic Dermatitis is 0.5mg/lb once daily.

    Make sure the only active ingredient in Zyrtec is Cetirizine and NEVER give them Zyrtec-D as it has pseudo ephedrine which can possibly kill your dog.

    Cytopoint is only given repeatedly if the dog starts presenting with itchiness after the 4-6wk time frame. Some dogs respond to just one injection, while others require more. A lot depends on the cause of allergens the pet is exposed to daily.
    If it’s seasonal allergies then you may get by with one injection for the high allergy season every year.

    Cytopoint is a monoclonal antibody that specifically targets and neutralizes the
    IL-31 (interleukin 31) which are important cytokines that are responsible for sending the itch signal to the brain.
    It targets a specific cytokine to block the itch signal. It has a very minimal impact on the immune system and it’s metabolization does not involve the kidneys or liver.
    It mimics the dogs natural immune system which involves the cycle of itch and inflammation.

    I am not the best at explaining how medications work. I know how they work but to put it into an understandable written context for someone is hard for me as I try to avoid too many medical terms that can be confusing and sometimes confuse people even more.
    If you would like a more in-depth explanation let me know.

    Hope this helps you understand it better.
    • Informative Informative x 1
  14. Tropicalbri's

    Tropicalbri's $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    The dose for a 75lb dog would be 37.5mg
    It is sold in 10mg tabs so to stay on the low side give 30mg which would be 3 (10mg) tabs once a day. If improvements are not seen then you can give that amount twice a day. Allergic Dermatitis is usually dosed every 12hrs. while Atopic Dermatitis is dosed once every 24 hrs.
    Last edited: Oct 6, 2019
  15. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Thank you so much, @Tropicalbri's. That's a lot of information and mindblowing, but powerful information that I hope can help @The dude !
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Appreciation Appreciation x 1
  16. The dude

    The dude Jr Member

    Thanks so much for everyone who responded. It’s been almost 2 months since this began and we have finally decided to do cytopoint. On our way to the vet as we speak. I’ll update the progress in a week or so. Thanks again
    • Appreciation Appreciation x 4
  17. Tropicalbri's

    Tropicalbri's $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Fingers crossed for a positive outcome!
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. LifeofRubie

    LifeofRubie Active Member

    How frustrating! While we luckily don't deal with anything chronic, we have given generic Zyrtec and I have a bottle of GentraSpray at the ready. Rubie will get red spots on her stomach or arm pits that look quite inflamed and itchy. A spray once or twice a day for a day or two it usually clears up. Her's seems to come and go so I really think it's directly related to how long she's been in contact with grass, of all things, but never has any issues with her feet, oddly.

    Are the area's the itching red or inflamed or scaly? sorry if I missed that in a previous post.
  19. Kaiser2016

    Kaiser2016 Active Member

    Any update?
    • I was wondering about that too! I was wondering about that too! x 2
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