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How to create an anti-social dog.

Discussion in 'Training & Behavior' started by Doberman Gang, Jan 6, 2020.

  1. Doberman Gang

    Doberman Gang Hot Topics Subscriber

    I am not the one who wrote this but thought it was a great explanation and might help some people understand what not to do when out with there dogs.

    Want to know how to create an anti-social dog - one that reacts each and every time they see a new person or dog - then continue to allow her to have random, misguided, unpredictable interactions with everything that catches her fancy.

    As cute and fun as it may seem to allow your puppy to greet new dogs while on leash during your walks, it is one of the most ill-advised forms of socialization out there.

    We all know it’s extremely important for your new pup to be exposed to as many new things as possible, but we don’t want the overly excited greetings from new people or dogs to become triggers for arousal that encourage jumping, barking, or pulling on leash, or breaking a command.

    When a dog owner allows her puppy to pull her to a stranger to pet their dog, not only are you elevating her state of mind, but you are also inevitably reinforcing two things - even more excitement the next time she sees someone new, and complete, and utter disconnect from the human holding the end of the leash.

    When we allow high value distractions to allure our dogs (strangers soliciting pets or on leash greetings with other dogs), the distractions become your dog's priority over you. Your calm, relaxing walks begin to unravel, and your dog is now hyper-reactive to each and every passerby on the street.

    A dog that fancies his handler over its environment IS the well-socialized dog... not the dog that pulls his owner to greet every passerby.
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  2. Viemarangelrock

    Viemarangelrock $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Agree, 100%! A well socialised dog is focused on what his owner asks of them. Not everything in their sight. Great post, @Doberman Gang!
    • Agree Agree x 3
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  3. luckybeemer

    luckybeemer Member

    Good, direct and to the point info. Thanks for sharing.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  4. Ravenbird

    Ravenbird Notable member

    Totally get it, @Doberman Gang. What about the defense though? I took my pup to a quiet park today to do some fun stuff and a little obedience. We were alone and doing well, then a man and his two small kids, maybe around 3 to 5 years old, arrived to go to the section with swing sets and slides etc. Asha broke her engagement with me to growl for a moment and bark. I corrected her immediately and continued my healing and treating and sit/treating and then playing with OK! All is well! kind of thing for distraction and she did come back to me, but not without side glances at the man & his kids, now squealing and swinging and playing just 100 feet away. She does want to do a defense bark at a new dog or new people but only in a new setting. She does seem to "recover" quickly, but I'd like her not to bark or challenge to begin with. I want neutral!!! We also went into a Tractor Supply (feed store) and she was perfect, happy to see anyone, but not overly so, and more interested in the food smells and dog toys. But ONE man, coming down the aisle, she growled and "buuft" at. He went the other way and she saw him again at another junction in the store and same-same, positioned up and growled under her breath. I distracted her both times, but obviously she had a dislike there. Everyone else - maybe 4 other strangers - she was totally fine with. Is this OK? needs more correction? I feel like she is not old enough to make these kinds of judgements on her own. (4 1/2 months).
  5. Doberman Gang

    Doberman Gang Hot Topics Subscriber

    I would correct it every time, Dogs just like us can get uneasy feelings towards certain people but when in public we need to be in charge. I will guard my dogs against others (people and especially other dogs). We train so that our dogs can perceive a threat, guard when needed and cap themselves at other times but in public they need to be on there best behavior and understand we are in control of all situations. The public perception of our dogs, and other working line breeds, can easily be miss interpreted and we need to make sure we do what we can to show our dogs in a good light.

    In also want to add, our dogs are not supposed to be protecting us from other dogs. This is a bad situation all around. There was thread a little bit ago about dogs showing protection and quite a few about dogs showing protection towards other dogs that were out loose. This is not what our dogs are breed for and will never end well. We need to make our dogs feel safe and we are in control when we are out with them. When this happens and we allow it, it reinforces our dogs to not trust strangers or other dogs and can lead to fear aggression if your dog is fearful. Also makes you out to be weak and you put yourself into a non leadership type roll which can create other problems if you have a dominant dog. So always be your dogs leader and in control of the situation.
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  6. Ravenbird

    Ravenbird Notable member

    Thank you, I guess I just needed you to reinforce my thoughts. She never did this until this week and I'm not proud of it at all. Some sources say there are later "fear periods" for puppies, and I'm hoping maybe it is a temporary thing, because she was so good about strangers and other dogs until the last 7 days. At the vet for her vaccines she was totally neutral to all the people and dogs and I treated her throughout. Then last week for her Rabies she wanted to growl/bark at everyone who came in the waiting room. I corrected, distracted, treated, had her face me, played with treats etc, but it totally took me by surprise as she had never shown this before... and it's been happening all week. I DID feel like a failure as her protector and wondered why she didn't trust me to be in charge? I do get between her and others, but I also try not to make a big deal of it and try to continue whatever we were doing. Such a fine line! Public perception is really important to me, especially going into working sports. This puppy is fearless, hard, independent and wants to be dominant, so I know I can't slack off on anything. I'm taking her to a Star Puppy class starting next Saturday, just so she can be with other dogs and people in a controlled setting. As always, thanks for your input!
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  7. Lizbeli

    Lizbeli $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    Very interesting point. I actually just made a thread regarding some recent encounters with loose dogs. With one of them Jasper was by my side but a bit out of heel, closer to a loose dog that was about three feet away barking at us. Jasper was tense but quiet, not much in hackles. Im wondering if I should have put pressure on his prong and moved him behind me?
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  8. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    Very good post DG!
    • Agree Agree x 3
  9. Tropicalbri's

    Tropicalbri's $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    My husband is not a person that will engage in a confrontation unless it comes to me or our animals.
    Unlike me he is much more mellow about things and picks his battles carefully.
    I, on the other hand will tell it like it is, if someone asks me a question. I try to be diplomatic in how I respond but daaaaammmnnn people don’t ask a question if you don’t want the answer. If you want PC and lightly beating around the bush then ask someone else because if you ask if a dress or pants make you look fat, I will tell you the truth.

    Anyway he has stepped up and started doing much more with Bacall without me or Bogie around. He has always been nervous that something would happen and I would get upset.
    Tonight he just came back from a long
    walk with her, some off leash work, then walked her through Boondocks lower level that is an open air grille and draft house. he said people came up wanting to pet Bacall and give her treats.
    He was adamant that she had the “working dog, do not pet” vest on for a reason and she is not allowed treats from anyone but us.

    There was Tourists there with their little dog that went ape :poop: when she saw Bacall. Hubs said he gave Bacall the sit command, then the down command which she did perfectly and he looked at the group with the barking dog and said; “Pretty obvious your dog isn’t trained, might want to invest in some basic training.”
    Then he gave Bacall the heel command and walked on by them while everyone just stared, with a couple giggles he could hear.
    When he got home he was just so proud of Bacall and himself.
    I was shocked he would even say anything. I looked at him and said; “ you finally get it.”
    Our Dobermanns make us proud in public with their obedience and majestic looks and I guess they give ‘us’ confidence.
    Oh and he said Bacall looked at the barking dog once then kept her attention on hubs which made him feel awesome at how well she behaved. Then he hugged me and said he now understands just how much work I put into both dobes and promises to be more involved.
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  10. Ravenbird

    Ravenbird Notable member

    @Tropicalbri's this is what I'm aiming for. I'm hoping I'm in a puppy stage that will pass, but I know better than to slack off. Keep giving us inspiration!
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  11. Tropicalbri's

    Tropicalbri's $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Your girl was probably just a bit unsure in that situation and that’s why she reacted the way she did. She is young and I think you are doing great with her. She is going to make you proud with all the training you will be and are doing.

    Bacall looks all sweet and lovey but she has a hard edge to her.
    Bogie is my goofball at home but is a serious dog when out in public. He is very aloof about people and is not fond of being approached by anyone while in public. He is all about me. He has this serious penetrating look on his face that usually keeps people away because it looks intimidating. Little do they know, that’s his normal face. :rofl:
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  12. jazzies mum

    jazzies mum Hot Topics Subscriber

    I love this thought and agree that they give us a confidence boost, but in my case I think it's because I've had to learn to front people on Jazzies behalf! :)

    @Doberman Gang I think that your post makes things so clear which helps a lot!
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  13. BamMoMoMommy

    BamMoMoMommy $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    It's times like this that can speak louder...than anything anyone can write about the breed being a good pet, showing they aren't dangerous and it's the owner...not the dog......that leaves the breed with either a positive or negative impression on others.

    Good job Bacall for being an awesome Doberman Ambassador!!

    YOU KNOW..them silly tourist are gonna go home to where-eversville...and talk about the amazing dobe they saw while in the keys!!:hearteyes:
    • Appreciation Appreciation x 1
  14. mshipway

    mshipway Jr Member

    This is Kind of what I am lacking. Argo loves me and I am struggling to keep his focus on me. If there is other dogs around in our training... he will make a dash for them in the classroom. SO any tips on how i can work on keeping the focus on me is greatly appreciated...
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  15. Ravenbird

    Ravenbird Notable member

    Just now seeing your question from a couple of weeks ago... First of all if you are in puppy class, is Argo on a leash? If not, probably not a good kind of class in my opinion. If on leash, just check him back to you, exchange treats for re-engaging with you, I talk silly nonsense or get animated to get my puppy excited about what I might have to offer her.
  16. BamMoMoMommy

    BamMoMoMommy $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    How much do you work him away from class? It's a constant thing..not something you can do once in a while and expect them to "get it and retain it".
  17. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    Ran across this site and interesting article!
    PTH - Anthropomorphism – The Greatest Threat to Animal Welfare



    What is Anthropomorphism?
    Universally, anthropomorphism is known as giving human characteristics to a non-human entity. These seemingly innocent mannerisms often involve such things like reading a book about Peter Rabbit or talking to a pet when arriving home from work. As trivial as the concept may be, it can create real rifts in our society. Anthropomorphism becomes an issue when we start using it to force human emotions and principles on real-life animals, instead of just characters in a book or fable.

    How Deep is Anthropomorphism?
    Anthropomorphism has been a part of the human experience since the earliest cultures developed. When people began telling stories and passing along history, they cultivated animal metaphors and characters that had human traits. This goes as deep as the personification of well-known terms like ‘Mother Nature’ and ‘Father Time’.

    Anthropomorphism can be traced back over 30,000 years ago to sculptures involving human-animal figures. Many ancient myths also involved deities that had human emotions, appearances, and behavioral traits. Take the Greek God Zeus as an example; he is depicted in many sculptures and statues as an attractive human man. Some of the myths involving Zeus describe him as having affairs with women and jealousy towards his wife Hera, both of which are imperfect human traits that were constructed to make him seem more human-like. This is just one of the many early depictions of anthropomorphism.

    Anthropomorphism in Modern Times
    As humans matured from mythology into modern learning, we then began applying anthropomorphism to our literary works. The 19thcentury was full of stories such as Alice’s Adventures in Wonderland and The Jungle Book, which both portrayed animal characters with human emotions and traits. In the 20th century, this progressed into works that all but removed humans completely. We see this in books like Animal Farm and Winnie-the-Pooh, and many Disney movies, which have the main characters as animals.

    We can see anthropomorphism today in almost every household in this country and the trend is growing. It might be a dog that you dress up for Halloween or a cat that you consider as your child. This is evidenced too in the billon-dollar pet industry where outfits for dogs and cats are sold, and it is now common in cities and urban areas to see dogs in baby strollers. Pets have been companions for most of our history, but only recently have we begun replacing human interactions for the imaginary dialog animals have to offer.

    These things in and of themselves are not bad, but we need to step back and understand why we are projecting these traits on our pets and other animals and the impact.

    How Anthropomorphism is Detrimental to Animal Welfare
    When anthropomorphism is directed towards animals, it gives humans an unrealistic model for those animals to live up to. Just as we should not expect a human child to act like a dog, we should not expect a dog to act like a human child, as they are not equivalent to the other.

    Expecting a pet, or any other animal to live up to the standards of human traits can cause a wide array of problems, which can include:
    • Behavioral Problems
    Many behavioral problems directly stem from anthropomorphism and unrealistic expectations for pets and even livestock. Owners expect them to “know better,” “feel guilty,” and never to express their natural instincts. “He never bites, he won’t bite,” and “she won’t kick or spook,” are examples of this.

    Behavioral problems and lack of training are the number one reason small animals are surrendered to shelters and large animals, like horses, are abandoned. This is a significant factor to why we believe anthropomorphism is a threat to animal welfare.

    • Health Problems
    Anthropomorphism has led many animal owners to overfeed their pets. It has also led them to provide animals food items and diets that are not healthy for them. Overweight pets are becoming a significant issue in veterinary medicine. This is such an issue that veterinarians regularly prescribe special diets that are designed to lower the pet’s weight. Specialty diets for overweight pets have also become big business for pet food companies.

    Digestive problems from feeding animals human food can cause a multitude of issues including diabetes, pancreatitis, diarrhea, constipation, vomiting, malnourishment, liver damage, and even death. Another very concerning issue is a relatively new movement that involves feeding pets vegan diets. Instead of recognizing animals as different species from humans, vegan diets are forced on pets. This is not due to the pet’s nutritional needs, but the pet owner’s ideological beliefs. These vegan pet food diets base their protein sources from plants, which is something that a pets’ digestive system was not evolved to handle. For example, feeding a vegan diet to a cat can be lethal.

    • Veterinary Visit Problems
    It is not uncommon for veterinarians to make recommendations regarding handling and training. These recommendations are usually made to help with behavioral problems that can be dangerous in a veterinary clinic setting. If an owner does not follow these recommendations, it can result in harm to the veterinarian, their staff, other clients in the office, and even the pet itself. Anthropomorphism can affect how a pet owner views these recommendations by thinking: “he knows better,” “I don’t want someone telling me what to do,” and “she wouldn’t hurt anyone.”

    • Pet Owner Problems
    If anthropomorphism is taken to the extreme and becomes the norm, society may agree that animals deserve habeas corpus (a civil right given to persons that are imprisoned). It is possible that owners could then be removed from making decisions about what they believe is best for their animal. We believe this is an animal welfare threat because outsiders who do not know anything about your animal or the care it requires could be making the decisions instead.

    Along with habeas corpus, another matter that is being pushed is changing the term “owner” to “guardian” in regards to animals. The term “guardian” insinuates that the animal is not property and has some form of personhood. This could lead to an increase in malpractice insurance for veterinarians since professional liability insurance currently only covers pets as property. Covering a pet that has “personhood” may include covering the pain and suffering that is often issued in human cases of malpractice. The price for such insurance coverage would be greatly higher than current rates. This cost will be passed on to the clients and would make providing veterinary care to animals even more expensive. This increased expense, in turn, will either create financial barriers to pet ownership or discourage owners from seeking veterinary care for their animals. Either way, the animals lose.

    Anthropomorphism Has Led to Crimes and Domestic Terrorism
    What we don’t often realize is how anthropomorphism shifts into devious and sometimes illegal behavior. There are animal rights groups, along with their group members who are now on the FBI’s list for domestic terrorism. In the name of animal rights, fueled by extreme anthropomorphism, crimes have been committed such as: breaking into research facilities to save ‘enslaved’ dogs, stealing animals, exposing animals to infectious diseases, and fire-bombing multiple types of animal-based businesses. Such behavior includes continued and ongoing harassment of businesses, consumers, farmers, ranchers, and animal owners. This type of negative behavior comes from extreme anthropomorphism, which leads to the irrational idea that animals have the same consciousness and emotional understanding that humans do.

    Why Do Animal Rights Activists Use Anthropomorphism?
    Since the root of the animal rights ideology is extreme anthropomorphism, instead of seeing animals as private property, animal rights ideologues view animals as equal persons to human beings. Animal rights extremists continuously refer to the human ‘emotions’ of animals. Due to this, they view animal ownership as ‘enslavement.’ This enslavement applies to all animals including pet owners, animal exhibitors, scientists, farmers, and ranchers.

    Animal rights organizations focus their propaganda on influencing people to assign human traits to an animal. These groups cause viewers obvious emotional distress, via their massive marketing campaigns with heavily edited videos and images. This distress can generate feelings of guilt in people who have little to no experience working with animals, especially livestock and zoo animals. In addition to making people feel guilty, getting someone to believe an animal has human attributes will make that person much more likely to express empathy. Guilt and empathy are powerful motivators. The viewer is told the cure is to donate money to the organization.

    The massive financial success of the animal rights industry has proven their formula of creating emotional reactions works much better than stating facts when it comes to raising funds.

    In addition to spending millions on manipulating people emotionally to increase fundraising, animal rights groups spend millions of dollars each year on lobbying and writing legislature so they can get one step closer to ‘animal liberation,’ or their version of the Emancipation Proclamation. To incite and influence voters and lawmakers, animal rights groups tap into the same anthropomorphic fundraising formula. Using edited videos, sad looking photos, and crying protestors are the key to triggering a response in a voter unfamiliar with animal husbandry best practices.

    When Will We Reach the Breaking Point?
    Anthropomorphism is not the only movement in our society that is focused on emotional reactions and feelings. There seems to be a sort of cancer on the American public that suggests feelings are more essential and realistic than scientific fact and logic.

    While we rarely think about how anthropomorphism affects our daily life, we are now forced to discuss where the line should be drawn. As our society continues to project human traits more and more onto animals, we will at some time reach a breaking point. That point will be when the majority of our society no longer sees an animal as an animal. They will see it as an individual that deserves civil rights. The end result is that we will no longer be able to own our animals and make decisions in their best interest.

    Link to article about habeas corpus: /news/habeas-corpus-humans-not-animals/

    When will the general public realize that anthropomorphism taken to the extreme does not help animals? When will we decide enough is enough and that our private property is indeed ours? This right is planted firmly in our constitution and should not be based on someone else’s emotional response to manipulation, no matter how sad the puppy dog looks in the photo.

    Where will you draw the line? Where will the line be drawn in the United States? What will happen to the animals we share our daily lives with?
  18. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I know this article is not about PETA, But this one paragraph just brings something to mind that drives me nuts. I know it's a rhetorical question, but I would love to know how many PETA followers have a pet of their own? It's just hard to comprehend that not one of the thousands of them would have an animal of their own as a pet. Not one pet? Not a bird? Dog? Cat? I'd love to see it! And all the stinkin celebrities that go along with it usually have a toy dog peeking out of a purse!
    • I was wondering about that too! I was wondering about that too! x 1

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