1. Disclaimer: Hello Guest, Doberman Chat Forums presents the opinions and material on these pages as a service to its membership and to the general public but does not endorse those materials, nor does it guarantee the accuracy of any opinions or information contained therein. The opinions expressed in the materials are strictly the opinion of the writer and do not represent the opinion of, nor are they endorsed by, Doberman Chat Forums. Health and medical articles are intended as an aid to those seeking health information and are not intended to replace the informed opinion of a qualified Veterinarian.”
    Dismiss Notice
Dismiss Notice
Hello Guest!
We are glad you found us, if you find anything useful here please consider registering to see more content and get involved with our great community members, it takes less than a minute!

Grainfree dcm link

Discussion in 'Doberman Nutritional Care' started by Logan 45, Mar 11, 2019.

  1. Logan 45

    Logan 45 $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    Hello everybody just wanted to gather opinions on whether or not you take the grainfree link to dcm seriously or not. I know that Dobermans have a greater risk to develop heart failure than other breeds. In other words if you can’t afford to feed raw is it better to feed grainfree or no corn wheat or soy ? Thank you.

     
  2. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    For sure #1 I would look for foods that do not contain any Corn, Wheat or Soy of any kind. The Grain Free issue in question are some foods that contain Legumes, Pea Protein, Potato.

    You can go to this thread and read more about it. Go to page 1
    No grain-free dog food heart disease in Europe…Why?
     
    Last edited: Mar 11, 2019
    • Agree Agree x 3
  3. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber


    ABSOLUTELY! While there is no evidence it is the cause of the doberman types of DCM, we just don't know enough yet. I have seen numbers of anywhere from 50-70% of dobies will get DCM. :shock: Could there be something about grain free diets that triggers the types of the disease dobermans have? We just don't know....yet. With the risk as high as it is and the evidence that that grain free is a cause in other breeds, not worth it for me.
     
    • Agree Agree x 6
  4. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Appreciation Appreciation x 1
  5. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. Logan 45

    Logan 45 $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    Thank you for the opinions. That raises a good question about Europe not having these issues. Dog food is a funny subject and I have seen the links out there that suggest it is related to taurine similar to the cat food issues years ago. I definitely wish there was a little more information out on the subject.
     
  7. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    It's not real similar. But Cats (are true Carnivores) can't synthesize it adequately and enough of it like most other mammals. Back with that issue in the 80's where thousands and thousands of cats were dying with cat foods. #1 They didn't put enough organ meats in foods. #2 They are adding too many grains in cat food. This is why they add Taurine into cat foods.

    In dog foods they add a couple of Amino Acids Methionine and Cysteine in dog foods. So dogs can synthesize them to make Taurine. But now some manufacturers are adding in Taurine also.

    Now it is unsure what the reason is why some breeds that are not susceptible to DCM are getting it.
    Is it something in the Legumes or other ingredients blocking the synthesis of Methionine and Cysteine to make Taurine???????

    As for now if I had a breed that has a Genetic possibility of DCM is 60% (like Dobermans) I would NOT be feeding a Grain Free Diet.
    Unless there was some reason (like allergies or food sensitivities) they had to be on it. Then for sure I would be supplementing with Taurine and others.

    Also my feelings just having a Dobe I would be supplementing with certain supplements starting at 15mo with low doses of them.
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 1
  8. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    Lots of good info here.

    Grain-Free Dog (and Cat) Food, Taurine, and Heart Disease ...
    Grain-Free Dog (and Cat) Food, Taurine, and Heart Disease – Little Big Catdog-food-taurine-and...
    Remember that dogs make cysteine from methionine, and taurine from cysteine. Any weak link in the chain of methionine, cysteine or taurine could be problematic. Because of this dependency, only methionine has a minimum level in dog food according to current AAFCO standards; there is also a minimum for the combination of methionine + cysteine.

    Dogs, Nutrition
    Grain-Free Dog (and Cat) Food, Taurine, and Heart Disease
    by Jean Hofve DVM • August 3, 2018 • Comments Off on Grain-Free Dog (and Cat) Food, Taurine, and Heart Disease


    NOTE: This is a very fluid situation right now, with a lot of conflicting interpretations and ongoing research. I will update this article as needed. This already involves hundreds of dogs. FDA now admits that cats have also been affected, even though AAFCO standards require taurine supplementation in cat foods. SCROLL DOWN to see details on all updates.

    A couple of weeks ago (July 2018), the FDA released a warning about grain-free dog foods and their possible connection to the development of a serious heart disease in dogs. Is this warning justified, based on science? Let’s take a look.

    What is Taurine?

    Taurine is an amino acid produced by the pancreas, and almost exclusively found in meat. It is abundant in the brain, the eye (especially the retina), muscle tissue, and many organs. It is an essential component of bile acids, which are produced in the liver, stored in the gallbladder, and used to break down fats from food.

    Most mammals produce their own taurine in the pancreas from amino acid precursors. (Notable exceptions are cats and weasels–including ferrets–who must consume taurine in their diet.) The first step involves the sulfur-containing essential amino acid methionine, which is used to make another amino acid, cysteine (also spelled “cystine”). Finally, taurine is made from cysteine. Taurine production naturally decreases with age.

    Taurine plays many roles in the body. It is crucial for muscles, especially the heart muscle. Taurine is utilized in every area of the brain, as well as the retina of the eyes. It is essential for immune system function. Taurine acts as a potent antioxidant and anti-inflammatory agent. More specifically, it has been shown to improve periodontal disease in humans. It also helps regulate blood pressure, and is an extremely important cellular protector. It is used to treat hepatic lipidosis (fatty liver) in cats as well as people; and it may be helpful in kidney disease. Being made in the pancreas, it is no surprise that taurine has a profound effect on the development and course of both Type 1 and Type 2 diabetes.

    History

    Before WWII, more than 90% of commercial pet food came in cans, and contained mostly if not only meat. However, metal was needed for the military, and by the time the war ended, 85% of pet food was dry kibble. It still contained a large amount of meat, and this prevented taurine deficiencies from occurring.

    The primary machinery for producing what we now know as dry food is called an extruder; it was introduced in the 1950s. To get the correct consistency of dough for the extruder, a minimum amount of starch is needed. This started the trend of ever-increasing quantities of cereal grain, such as corn, in dry foods. At the same time, meat processors were getting more proficient at getting more meat from livestock carcasses; so pet food makers substituted other leftover animal tissues or “by-products.” Over time, the result was a high-grain, low-meat dry food, for which the profit margin was—conveniently—much higher than for canned food.

    In the late 1970s, cats were going blind or dying of congestive heart failure due to a condition called dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM). Many of those cats were eating the same food (Hill’s Science Diet); and this was noticed by researchers at UC Davis. In the mid-1980s, they published the results of their research showing that taurine deficiency was the issue. Pet food manufacturers hastened to supplement taurine in their feline diets. Since then, DCM (dilated cardiomyopathy) dramatically decreased in cats eating commercial, “balanced” cat food. (Cats can spontaneously develop DCM unrelated to taurine, and a genetic form exists in Maine coon cats and a few other breeds and lines.)

    Taurine and Dogs

    Dogs make their own taurine from sulfur-containing amino acids, primarily cysteine, but also methionine. It was thought that, because they could produce it themselves, dogs didn’t need supplemental taurine.

    However, it is also known that that big dogs produce taurine at a slower rate than small dogs, putting them at risk for a deficiency. Genetics also play a significant role, with certain breeds and family lines being predisposed to developing DCM.

    The existence of a link between taurine deficiency and DCM in dogs has been known at least since1997—some dogs can’t supply their own taurine needs. Certain lines of spaniels, retrievers (notably Golden Retrievers), and particularly Newfoundlands, are known to develop the same taurine-dependent form of DCM that had killed thousands of cats.

    DCM is a common form of heart disease in dogs, especially in large and giant breeds. Diet is a likely factor in about 20-30% of dogs with DCM, for which supplementing taurine may reverse the disease. Symptoms of DCM include tiring easily, shortness of breath, and coughing.

    However, it may not be a specific taurine deficiency in the food that is a contributing factor in DCM. Some research suggests it may be insufficient cysteine that limits the dog’s ability to produce taurine. Remember that dogs make cysteine from methionine, and taurine from cysteine. Any weak link in the chain of methionine, cysteine or taurine could be problematic.

    Because of this dependency, only methionine has a minimum level in dog food according to current AAFCO standards; there is also a minimum for the combination of methionine + cysteine.

    L-carnitine, another amino acid found primarily in meat, may also play a role in the development of DCM in a small percentage of dogs. L-carnitine becomes unavailable in pet food through processing, and is generally not added back due to its high cost.

    In early studies, most of the dogs with DCM were eating lamb and rice dog foods. Lamb has a relatively low level of sulfur-containing amino acids compared to chicken and other poultry. Another study found that dogs eating foods containing beet pulp had lower blood taurine levels.

    Possible reasons for low blood taurine levels in dogs fed an otherwise “complete and balanced food” that have been suggested include:

    • Differences in protein digestibility and bioavailability may limit available precursors
    • Interference with reabsorption of taurine-containing bile acids in the gut so that more taurine is excreted
    • Interaction of food and/or food form (canned vs. dry) with gut bacteria
    • Type of processing that limits taurine bioavailability
    The Current Situation

    The FDA reported a link between DCM and “grain-free” dog foods that rely heavily on potatoes, legumes, and exotic proteins. Vegan and homemade diets were also reportedly involved. This caught FDA’s attention because some of the dogs were not the breeds that are known to develop DCM due to taurine deficiency; these dogs included Labrador Retrievers, Whippets, Miniature Schnauzers, one Shih Tzu, one Bulldog, and an unspecified number of mixed-breed dogs.

    Specifically, the FDA stated that “potatoes or multiple legumes such as peas, lentils, other “pulses” (seeds of legumes), and their protein, starch and fiber” were main ingredients of the food in several cases of DCM reported to the agency. Note the careful language used in its statement: potatoes are singled out, but with regard to legumes, multiple legumes and their isolated components were main ingredients in implicated diets.

    Subsequently, FDA has emphasized that people should “not tak[e] intuitive leaps beyond what is explicitly stated in our public notice.” That is, don’t assume that all legumes are problematic—just the ones specifically noted. (However, other research greatly widens this array.)

    Unfortunately, FDA failed to indicate whether the associated foods were dry, canned, or both. It’s probably safe to assume that most or all were dry foods, since that is what the vast majority of dogs are fed in the U.S. But it is worth noting that, in the case of cats, canned foods need supplemental taurine at a much higher level than dry foods, because cats’ gut bacteria interact differently with those food forms.

    Based on FDA’s statement and previous research, ingredients that may be correlated with DCM in dogs and are (more or less commonly) used in dog foods include:

    Animal Products Plant Products
    Bison Barley
    Duck Beet pulp*
    Lamb Chickpeas
    Kangaroo Fava beans
    Salmon Lentils
    Venison Peas
    Potatoes
    Rice/rice bran**
    Sweet Potatoes
    Tapioca
    * While it was not named by FDA in this situation, beet pulp is known to decrease taurine status in dogs under some conditions.

    ** Previous studies found taurine deficiency in dogs (and cats) eating diets containing rice or rice bran.

    FDA also suggested that food made by small “boutique” manufacturers were more likely to be problematic. Indeed, some foods that appear to be overloading plant proteins are from smaller manufacturers. However, FDA definitely did not exclude products from big manufacturers.

    It seems odd that this problem should occur now, even though potatoes have been used in dog food—particularly “hypoallergenic” formulas—for decades. Many such foods also included, and continue to include, lamb or other listed animal-source ingredients as the primary or sole animal protein.

    For example, Hill’s Science Diet d/d lists potatoes, potato starch, [venison, salmon, or duck], and potato protein as its first four ingredients. One would think such a would be particularly dangerous, except that Hill’s also adds taurine to these foods. Most vegetarian and vegan dog foods also include both taurine and carnitine. Evidently, this issue was not hard to anticipate in low- or zero-meat diets.

    Of course, correlation does not equal causation, and there are likely to be other factors involved. There are dozens of grain-free dog foods on the market, and without knowing which brands were involved, it’s impossible to know for certain which ingredients or other factors may be at fault. FDA and UC Davis are actively looking into the issue to try to understand what’s really happening.

    Unfortunately, some media reports have focused on legumes, even though potatoes are a far more common pet food ingredient. Legumes are very nutritious, and used properly, can be a very healthy dog food ingredient.

    Many “boutique” grain-free diets contain two or more of the ingredients noted by FDA and other researchers. For example, several salmon-based foods also contain potatoes and/or beet pulp. Several other foods list up to five legumes/derivatives, sometimes in addition to potatoes or a listed lower-taurine meat like venison or lamb, as major ingredients.

    As with many cat products, some dog foods are inordinately high in plant-based products with not so much meat. Certainly, plant proteins are often used to increase total protein and decrease cost in many dog foods.

    Ingredients are listed by weight on the label; using multiple legumes, potatoes, or fractions thereof (a practice referred to as “splitting”) allows a company to include far more plant protein than meat protein, while allowing the named meat to remain at the top of the ingredient panel. So, it may not be potatoes or legumes that are the problem; rather, it may be an overwhelming amount of potatoes or legumes.

    Most small-manufacturer and grain-free diets are relatively high in protein, but the proportion of plant to animal sources may be a crucial factor for those foods implicated by the FDA.

    There are several other factors that could affect dogs’ blood taurine levels that have not been considered:

    • Perhaps there is some intrinsic factor in legumes and potatoes that is acting as an “anti-nutrient” and binding or otherwise interfering with taurine metabolism.
    • Something is happening during processing that is causing taurine in these foods to become unavailable. (We know, for instance, that taurine from fish is diminished by heat processing; the loss is about 30%.)
    • Disruption of the microbiome (gut bacteria population) alters taurine bioavailability in cats through the action of gut bacteria; perhaps this is true for certain dogs as well.
    • Affected dogs may have altered pancreatic function, such as subclinical pancreatitis, that prevents nutrient absorption and/or adequate taurine synthesis.
    To my knowledge, these possibilities have not been explored at all.

    Conclusions

    At this time, FDA is not recommending a diet change for any dog, as their investigation is in the very early stages. They have found DCM in dogs eating all kinds of foods, from those with a simple ingredient list to very complex foods. And while all the above ingredients have at some time been associated with DCM in dogs, at this time FDA is only correlating potatoes and legumes.

    FDA further clarified to me that “foods containing multiple pulses that appear near the top of the product’s ingredient list have appeared more frequently in the reports we have received thus far.” (Emphasis added.)

    It is very important to note that not all dogs with DCM—and not even all dogs who also had very low blood levels of taurine—responded to taurine supplementation. This implies that it isn’t taurine itself that’s the problem (at least in those cases); but as noted, it certainly could be lack of methionine and/or cysteine. Conversely, many of the sick dogs had perfectly normal blood taurine levels. An earlier study concluded that “there was no clear relationship between low [whole blood taurine] and presence of DCM.”

    The association between diet and DCM is far more complicated than simply blaming the problem on one or two ingredients. It seems clear that the interplay between genetics and one or several of ingredients, and perhaps the food’s overall content of methionine, cysteine, l-carnitine, and taurine, that is at the root of DCM in these cases. But at this point, no one–FDA or otherwise–has any idea which factors are actually problematic, or in what amounts or combinations.

    It does seem likely that in a product containing sufficient animal protein, taurine levels will be adequate. If a food has an animal protein at the top of the ingredient list, but also contains four or five plant proteins that—in reality—constitute the majority of total protein, thus diluting and short-changing the taurine, then that may be the real problem.

    One thing that is clear from all this is that AAFCO needs to revisit its Nutrient Profiles (which are based on research published prior to 2003) and either (1) increase the minimum for methionine, (2) increase the minimum for methionine-cystine (sic), and/or (3) add a notation that cysteine and taurine are at least conditionally essential amino acids for dogs. Taurine minimums for cat food also need re-examining, as cats have also been affected. (See 8/10/18 Update below.)

    Most importantly, of the tens or perhaps hundreds of thousands of dogs eating “boutique” and grain-free foods, only a handful have been linked to the problem. It is not time to press the panic button yet, despite the media frenzy.

    However, it would be helpful if pet food manufacturers would test for the four key amino acids to ensure that levels are sufficient for all dogs, or simply supplement taurine in food for dogs, as they already do for cats.

    If you’ve been feeding a potentially taurine-deficient food, you may want to give your dog supplemental taurine, about 250 mg per day for every 40 pounds of the dog’s body weight. Fortunately, taurine is very safe, even at extremely high doses.

    at extremely high doses.

    UPDATE 8/5/18: NBC did a report (1:53 minutes long and somewhat misleading). The veterinarian they filmed specifically said dogs need a GRAIN-based dog food. Sadly, people are being scared off ALL grain-free foods and back to GMO, pesticide-soaked, corn-based foods.

    We’ve never advocated grain-free food, since most of it simply replaces grains with high-carb starchy vegetables, like potatoes, peas, sweet potatoes, and legumes–and carbs are the problem. Make sure your dog’s food contains mostly meat and not half a dozen vegetables or fractions (potato starch, pea fiber, etc.) that add up to the largest proportion of the food.

    UPDATE 8/8/18: The FDA’s characterization of “boutique” foods is apparently way off the mark. Major pet food companies (including but not limited to Champion, Mars, and Purina) are involved: they either make grain-free diets themselves, or they’ve bought out small manufacturers (and not changed the brand name –most consumers are unaware of these acquisitions). Specific brands that have been implicated include (in alphabetical order): Acana (made by Champion), California Natural (owned but discontinued by Mars), Merrick (owned by Purina), Nutrisource (owned by co-packer Tuffy). (Sources: American College of Veterinary Internal Medicine, Veterinary Information Network)

    UPDATE 8/10/18 The FDA has released a “Questions and Answers” post for consumers. They revealed that their initial report involved 30 dogs and 7 cats. They never mentioned cats before. They now have 150 confirmed reports of affected dogs, and an unknown number that are being examined. With growing public awareness, there are undoubtedly hundreds of reports pending, but not all will be confirmed as taurine-deficiency DCM. It is possible for a dog to have DCM with completely normal taurine levels, and some dogs with low taurine levels will not develop DCM.

    UPDATE 8/10/18 More brands involved–to find out which ones, join the Facebook group “Taurine-Deficient Dilated Cardiomyopathy.” The data is confidential and may not be shared outside the group, but it’s extremely valuable information!!

    If your veterinarian wants to to do a blood test for taurine, the lab at UC Davis is doing the tests. Normally their turnaround time is 48 hours, but as you might expect, they are swamped, and processing time is now at least a week. Please be patient!

    References

    AAFCO (Association of American Feed Control Officials). Official Publication. 2018 (revised 4/1/18). (Available at http://www.aafco.org/Publications)

    Backus RC, Ko KS, Fascetti AJ, et al., Low plasma taurine concentration in Newfoundland dogs is associated with low plasma methionine and cyst(e)ine concentrations and low taurine synthesis. Journal of Nutrition. 2006; 136:2525-2533.

    Basili M, Pedro B, Hodgkiss-Geere X. Taurine deficiency in English cocker spaniels diagnosed with dilated cardiomyopathy. Research Communications of the 26th ECVIM‐CA Congress. 2017. https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jvim.14600

    Delaney SJ, Kass PH, Rogers QR, et al. Plasma and whole blood taurine in normal dogs of varying size fed commercially prepared food. Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition (Berl). 2003 Jun;87(5-6):236-44.

    Fascetti AJ, Reed JR, Rogers QR, Backus RC. Taurine deficiency in dogs with dilated cardiomyopathy: 12 cases (1997-2001). Journal of the America Veterinary Medical Association. 2003 Oct 15;223(8):1137-41.

    Freeman LM, Rush JE. Nutrition and cardiomyopathy: lessons from spontaneous animal models. Current Heart Failure Reports. 2007 Jun;4(2):84-90.

    Ko SK, Backus RCC, Berg JR, et al. Differences in Taurine Synthesis Rate among Dogs Relate to Differences in Their Maintenance Energy Requirement. Journal of Nutrition. 2007 May; 137(5):1171-5

    Ko SK, Fascetti AJ. Dietary beet pulp decreases taurine status in dogs fed low protein diet. Journal of Animal Science and Technology. 2016;58:29.

    Kramer GA, Kittleson MD, Fox PR, Lewis J, Pion PD. Plasma taurine concentrations in normal dogs and in dogs with heart disease. Journal of Veterinary Internal Medicine. 1995 Jul-Aug;9(4):253-8.

    Lakshmi Sree S, Sethupathy S. Evaluation of the efficacy of taurine as an antioxidant in the management of patients with chronic periodontitis. Dental Research Journal. (Isfahan) 2014 Mar-Apr; 11(2): 228–233.

    Marcinkiewicz J, Kontny E. Taurine and inflammatory diseases. Amino Acids. 2014; 46(1):7–20.

    NRC (National Research Council). Nutrient Requirements of Dogs and Cats. The National Academies Press. 2006.

    Ripps H, Shen W. Taurine: a “very essential” amino acid. Molecular Vision. 2012; 18:2673-2686.

    Sanderson SL. Taurine and carnitine in canine cardiomyopathy. Veterinary Clinics of North America: Small Animal Practice. 2006 Nov;36(6):1325-43, vii-viii.

    Sanderson SL, Gross KL, Ogburn PN, et al. Effects of dietary fat and L-carnitine on plasma and whole blood taurine concentrations and cardiac function in healthy dogs fed protein-restricted diets. American Journal of Veterinary Research. 2001 Oct; 62(10): 1616-1623.

    Simpson S, Rutland P, Rutland CS. Genomic Insights into Cardiomyopathies: A Comparative Cross-Species Review. Veterinary Sciences. 2017; 4:19 (26 pages).

    Spitze AR, Wong DL, Rogers QR, Fascetti AJ. Taurine concentrations in animal feed ingredients; cooking influences taurine content. Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition. 2003; 87:251–262.

    Tôrres CL, Backus RC, Fascetti AJ, Rogers QR. Taurine status in normal dogs fed a commercial diet associated with taurinerine deficiency and dilated cardiomyopathy. Journal of Animal Physiology and Animal Nutrition (Berl). 2003 Oct;87(9-10):359-72.

    Vollmar AC, Fox PR, Servet E, Biourge V. Determination of the prevalence of whole blood taurine in Irish wolfhound dogs with and without echocardiographic evidence of dilated cardiomyopathy. Journal of Veterinary Cardiology. 2013 Aug 22; 15(3):189-196]

    Wall T. Do peas and potatoes really cause heart disease in dogs? Petfood Industry. 2018 Jul 19; online bulletin.
     
  9. Kaiser2016

    Kaiser2016 Active Member

    From the previous article, are we to believe that these meats could also be problematic? Bison was Kaiser’s main protein, but the company stopped making it due to human demand for it being higher. Re rice, it’s usually a go-to ingredient for bland diets (like after tummy troubles), should we avoid that too?

    011E3F20-F98D-4A8C-A0E1-C12B9B542DBA.jpeg
     
    • Like Like x 1
  10. Logan 45

    Logan 45 $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    From what I gather your almost out of options for example 4health performance has barley and beet pulp victor hi pro plus has beet pulp. In other words it almost seems making your own food or feeding raw is just about the only option just add in vitamins and minerals
     
  11. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    If you are feeding a Raw Diet you should have no issues for your dog to get Taurine. They will get it from Fish, Meat and Organs. Adding fresh foods and not by synthetic supplementation it the best way for our pets to get nutrition.
    Different meats and animals will have different levels of vitamins, amino acids and enzymes. Another reason is to do a rotational diet of different animal proteins and organs.

    If your feeding Kibble then add canned Sardines (in water but drain it) 3-4x's a week. You can also add a Raw egg (Medium size has about 350mg of Taurine) everyday.

    Cooking with heat as they do in making kibble will destroy amino acids and enzymes. This is why manufactures use a Premix with synthetic amino acids and vitamins to add back into foods after the cooking extruding process.

    Or feed only 1/2 kibble and add in 1/2 fresh foods.
     
    • Appreciation Appreciation x 1
  12. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    @Kaiser2016
    All these animal proteins will all have less amount of nutrients because they will be cooked with heat and made into dog food. As I stated in the above post maybe feed 1/2 Kibble and 1/2 fresh foods.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    • Appreciation Appreciation x 1
  14. Logan 45

    Logan 45 $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    When you feed raw do you absolutely not cook it at all? I’ve never fed raw so I’m not exactly sure how it works. My brother in law is a food sales representative so I can order meat from him although it will be in bulk I can get it at wholesale price.
     
  15. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    We never cook ours. There are some people that do lightly cook it. But never cook bone and feed it. Like chicken backs if you cook them the bones will splinter when the dog chews it. It will cause a major problem. You don't want that.
    Most of our meat proteins are course ground with the bone in it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  16. Logan 45

    Logan 45 $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    Sounds good thank you for your helpfulness!
     
  17. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    @Logan 45
    If your going to do the Raw feeding diet.
    I would do some reading and join some Raw Feeding groups on Facebook.
    Because it’s just not just feeding meat.
    You need to also feed Organs and Bone.
    Where new or inexperienced Raw feeders get into trouble or I should say their pets?
    Thinking well I can just feed chicken wings. It’s more than just that.
    It’s feeding a balanced diet over time. Which over time to me is over 3-4 days.

    But once you have the basics down it gets easier.

    If you want some names of some good books to read just pm me.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. Logan 45

    Logan 45 $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    BDD58C53-715D-4F84-984C-6FD25E4BA13E.png I did find a food that doesn’t have any of the ingredients linked to dcm it’s called sport dog food k-9 series
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Informative Informative x 1
    • Appreciation Appreciation x 1
  19. Logan 45

    Logan 45 $ Premium Subscriber $ $ Forum Donor $

    4D260073-4907-493F-AB97-BA6AA9B37F7D.jpeg This is my Doberman here his name is Rubin and he is 20 months old and is roughly 95-100lbs
     
    • Like Like x 5
  20. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    My dogs are on a rotation diet and this is one of the foods included in our rotation. They love it and it's reasonably priced so win/win!
    The rotation diet works best for us. We tried raw and it was an epic fail for us. That was a few years ago before my current female. At the time I had a fawn girl and my current male. They did not do well on raw at all. Especially my male. He stunk, his coat was awful and had more visits to the Vet during that time, so yeah, epic fail.
    Both are doing well on the rotation diet, good healthy weights, outstanding coats and energy so we're sticking with it. I wonder sometimes if my female would do well on raw but I prefer to keep things simple and have them on the same diet.
     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1

Share This Page