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Grain or no Grain

Discussion in 'Doberman Nutritional Care' started by johnfin, Dec 1, 2018.

  1. johnfin

    johnfin Jr Member

    I was told that grain in food causes skin problems in dobies. Is this true?

  2. C908

    C908 Notable member

    You will get a lot of different opinions on this subject. Our new vet is adamant about not using grain free on the Doberman breed.
    • Agree Agree x 1
  3. Kaiser2016

    Kaiser2016 Active Member

    We have never fed grain free kibble back when we used kibble, however you should be aware that grain free diets have been linked to heart disease which Dobermans are already predisposed to no matter what you feed. Search taurine on here to learn more.
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  4. Drogon

    Drogon Hot Topics Subscriber

    It's a crap shoot. DCM is a concern with Dobermans. Until recently it was believed to be primarily genetic. Recently theory is that diet may play a major role. Taurine is an amino acid found in meat that is important to heart health. The issue with some 'grain free' foods isn't that they are grain free but rather what ingredients are there in place of the grains. Some of those ingredients block the taurine from being absorbed.
    I have not seen a peer reviewed study regarding diet playing a major role.
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  5. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $


    I know grain-free has been quite the trend for at least a few years now. I never really bought into it.
  6. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Here's the link to the thread mentioned above Taurine Deficiency and DCM Due to Diet

    It should be noted that it is still believed that dobermans do not suffer from low taurine related DCM. It is still believed that dobies acquire Primary DCM which means they are a breed predisposed to the disease and not diet related. We just don't know enough yet. The good news is because of this discovery, tons of studies going on so we are learning.
    For me, just the fact that grain free has caused some problems makes me avoid it. Of course not just any grains will do and of course there's other ingredients play a role in how taurine is absorbed. Who knew you had to be a scientist to own a dog?
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  7. My2Girls

    My2Girls Notable member

    My problem in my quest to find a kibble with grains and 4/5 star rating with no recalls and a rotating protein has been impossible. There just isn’t any out there. There are some that have chicken and rice but no other protein rotation (Princess has a chicken sensitivity so I try to avoid chicken based kibble).

    Let me know what you find.
    • Wow x 1
  8. Rits

    Rits Admin Administrative Staff Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Try Nature's Logic
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  9. Rits

    Rits Admin Administrative Staff Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

  10. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    This goes for humans also.
    I believe any allergies or sensitivities to foods or environmental things begin with a compromised Immune System. Since about 80% of the Immune System is located in the Gut. Is it from a unbalanced Gut bacteria? Is it caused from certain ingredients? GMO foods and Glyphosate (which is sprayed on these and other crops) which I'm sure are in lots of dog food ingredients can cause an upset in Gut bacteria. Also vaccinations and over vaccinating can trigger allergies to certain food proteins, other ingredients as preservatives and environmental things.
    Also an Topical Flea and Tick (which are Pesticides) preventatives can cause immune system responses. All of these can cause skin issues and others.

    This whole Grain Free food issue is in its beginning study of trying to find out what is causing this DCM issue in dog breeds that are not Genetically prone to DCM. Even in some of these breeds that have a high Taurine level are still developing DCM! They think its Legumes, Lentils, Peas and others. Our Cardiologist who is assisting with this study asked us if we are feeding our boy (who has DCM) a Grain Free diet? I laughed and said NO we feed a Raw Diet for years. She also said she would NOT suggest feeding him a Grain Free Diet. Yes I think a Dobermann and other Breeds that are prone Genetically to DCM I would not feed a Grain Free Diet! Until they find out the problem.

    I also think manufactures (which I told our Cardiologist) are not putting in enough animal meat proteins and organs in pet foods. They are putting in more plant based ingredients. Which boost the protein levels in the food! Also which boost the carbs (40-60%) in pet foods.

    rodney habib how much meat is in pet foods - Bing video

    Do GMO Crops Harm Gut Bacteria?

    What Your Gut Bacteria Say About You
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  11. My2Girls

    My2Girls Notable member

    I saw that listed on the ingredients on their website but I think chicken fat is OK. I’ve had many conversations with the kibble companies about chicken I just can’t remember if the chicken fat was OK. I think the way it was explained to me was that it is the protein in the chicken that causes the allergy and not the fat or something about the way it is processed. I might be wrong - its been a while since I was dealing with the chicken issue. I think I’ll call and see what they can tell me. I like what I’ve read about the kibble.
    • Informative Informative x 1
  12. strykerdobe

    strykerdobe Hot Topics Subscriber

    A lot is still unknown!

    Investigating the Grain Free Link to Heart Disease with Blinders On

    Investigating the Grain Free Link to Heart Disease with Blinders On
    By Susan Thixton
    - September 11, 2018

    They claim grain is safe (it’s not) and have neglected to mention the connection of processed inferior ingredients to heart disease in dogs. Why is that?

    Dr. Lisa Freeman – a veterinary nutritionist professor from Tufts University – has been very outspoken about grain free dog food’s link to dilated cardiomyopathy. She’s told everyone from the New York Times to readers of the Tufts vet school blog that “boutique grain-free” dog foods were responsible for the dilated cardiomyopathy (DCM) cases.

    Unless Dr. Freeman considers Royal Canin, Purina and Diamond to be boutique pet foods – she’s wrong on her assessment of the problem. The truth is many different brands, mostly from medium to large manufacturers are linked to low taurine levels and the DCM diagnosis in dogs. Why would a veterinary professor attempt to sway pet owners away from small pet food brands?

    Hold that thought.

    In another statement, Dr. Lisa Freeman told the New York Times:

    “Grains have not been linked to any health problems except in the very rare situation when a pet has an allergy to a specific grain.”

    This one is simply unforgivable. Grains most certainly have been linked to serious health problems over many decades – the risk is mycotoxins. Mycotoxins – even at low levels – pose a serious risk to pets. Further, mycotoxins are an on-going problem. Earlier this year Biomin.net published the the 2018 Global Mycotoxin Threat stating grains in North American tested as Extreme Risk. Where do you think those ‘extreme risk’ grains end up? Hint: it’s not human food.

    Telling pet owners to switch to a grain based pet food is just switching out one problem for another. So again, why would this veterinarian try to direct pet owners away from small pet food brands towards grain based pet foods when grains are a certain mycotoxin risk?

    Again…hold that thought…there’s more…

    Poor Digestibility of Ingredients
    In 2003, the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine published “Taurine status in normal dogs fed a commercial diet associated with taurine deficiency and dilated cardiomyopathy”. This study found that processing and “poor digestibility” of ingredients played a role in canine heart disease. Why hasn’t any veterinary nutritionist investigating the DCM cases today discussed the risk of processing and inferior ingredient link to canine heart disease?

    Perhaps it is because no veterinary nutritionist wants to talk about law being violated in pet food. Even though it is a direct violation of US Federal Law, pet food is allowed by FDA to contain ingredients sourced from “diseased animals or animals which have died otherwise than by slaughter”. Isn’t it common sense that sick, decomposing dead animals would provide inferior nutrition in pet foods? Add numerous processing stages to these inferior ingredients – is it any wonder the necessary amino acids are destroyed?

    There is one more significant issue…

    Endotoxins and Heart Disease
    Briefly mentioned in the New York Times article was a clue to a completely different group of DCM diagnosed dogs; “But taurine levels in other affected dogs, including mixed breeds, are normal, which puzzles researchers.” In other words, some sick dogs have low taurine levels linked to DCM – but other dogs diagnosed with nutrition related DCM have normal taurine levels. Why are these dogs with normal taurine sick with heart disease? It might be endotoxins.

    Endotoxins are ‘toxins’ that are released on bacterial death. Gram-negative bacteria such as Salmonella and or E. coli killed through cooking or processing of pet food ingredients ‘get even’ with their killers – they release a toxin that can be more dangerous to dogs and cats than the live bacteria.

    Waste pet food ingredients such as “diseased animals or animals which have died otherwise than by slaughter” are certainly sources of massive levels of Salmonella an other gram-negative bacteria. When cooked/processed into pet food ingredients – they become sources of massive levels of endotoxins.

    From “Endotoxin Effects on Cardiac and Renal Functions and Cardiorenal Syndromes”

    “Endotoxin plays a pivotal role in the pathogenesis of multi-organ dysfunction in the setting of gram-negative sepsis. Indeed, heart and kidney impairments seem to be induced by the release of circulating pro-inflammatory and pro-apoptotic mediators triggered by endotoxin interaction with immune cells.”

    From “Low level bacterial endotoxin activates two distinct signaling pathways in human peripheral blood mononuclear cells”

    “Bacterial endotoxin, long recognized as a potent pro-inflammatory mediator in acute infectious processes, has more recently been identified as a risk factor for atherosclerosis and other cardiovascular diseases.”

    In 2016, myself and an educated pet owner whose dog died from endotoxemia had a meeting with FDA. For more than an hour scientific evidence was submitted to FDA regarding the dangers to pets of endotoxin levels in pet food. FDA openly dismissed the risk. (To learn more about the risk of endotoxins in pet foods, Click Here.) Will FDA admit the link of heart disease to endotoxins in the pet foods? Doubtful.

    Why are veterinarian nutritionists telling pet owners false information?

    Why is no scientist, veterinarian, or FDA representative discussing the multiple links between inferior ingredients and high processing of ingredients to canine heart disease?

    The blinders need to come off – a biased investigation does not benefit pets. Will investigators intentionally ignore issues as not in the best interest of industry? And how many more dogs will die because of what they ignored?

    It’s a concern.

    Update to original post. Dr. Michael W. Fox sent the following statement adding several good points:

    “I would urge Dr. Lisa Freeman – a veterinary nutritionist professor from Tufts University, to reflect on the instances of dogs with seizures and inflammatory bowel, skin, ear and anal gland problems who return to good health when their diets no longer contain corn, cereal glutens and byproducts, and soy, many being GMO and contaminated with glyphosate among other agrichemicals and aflaxoxins.
    Glyphosate blocks manganese uptake, a nutrient essential for many organ functions.”
    See: (PDF) Glyphosate, pathways to modern diseases III: Manganese, neurological diseases, and associated pathologies

    And “Aug 13, 2018 – Rachel Ray’s Dog Food, Nutrish, is marketed as being free of “[No] artificial flavors or artificial preservatives” and being a “Natural food for dogs” …
    The current epidemic of DCM in dogs may have a multi-factor, pluricausal origin, genetics not withstanding. Lectins in GMO potatoes and in conventional pulses/legumes, when not properly processed are of concern. They may also play a role in the genesis of kidney failure especially when put in manufactured cat foods since cats are obligate carnivores, and in the development of autoimmune diseases.”
    (Editorials. Do dietary lectins cause disease? BMJ 1999;318:1023-1024 ( 17 April ).
    Wishing you and your pet(s) the best,

    Susan Thixton
    Pet Food Safety Advocate
    Author Buyer Beware, Co-Author Dinner PAWsible
    Association for Truth in Pet Food

    Become a member of our pet food consumer Association. Association for Truth in Pet Food is a a stakeholder organization representing the voice of pet food consumers at AAFCO and with FDA. Your membership helps representatives attend meetings and voice consumer concerns with regulatory authorities. Click Here to learn more.

    What’s in Your Pet’s Food?
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    The 2018 List
    Susan’s List of trusted pet foods. Click Here to learn more.

    Have you read Buyer Beware? Click Here

    Cooking pet food made easy, Dinner PAWsible

    Find Healthy Pet Foods in Your Area Click Here
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  13. Archer

    Archer Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    If it is a true chicken allergy then chicken fat is not ok.
    • Informative Informative x 1

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