Good protective instinct or a problem?

[jazzies mum]

I have noticed that Jazz will act protectively when suspect off leash dogs approach us. Most dogs are ok but when she sees a dogs behaviour as "off" or there are two dogs approaching like bulldozers she gets defensive.

For instance this morning we were doing our usual off leash walk and a couple of bully type dogs came out at us. Jazz greeted the young one when he approached but very soon didn't like him and definitely didn't like the older one coming in too. I called her to me and the others came in too. The owner was trying to call them off but they were "deaf". Jazz stood by me and aggresively sent them away when they came in but only took a few steps away from me. She was in full hackles and sounded truly vicious. The other dogs were getting worked up too by then and the owner started to dive around trying to grab his dogs, yelling and shouting. I stayed quiet and calm but was ready to kick any dog than tried to latch on.

My question is this. My feeling is that Jazz was performing her duty and hehaving with appropriate force to defend us. To correct her felt wrong to me and staying calm and static so she didn't rev up any further seemed the best course. Was I right or was there a better way to handle the situation. To be fair she totally ignored the man who was in a high state of excitement and ducking and diving with outstretched arms all around us. She was just keeping the dogs away.

 

[JanS]

I think she did just what she was supposed to do and so did you. Nice work! I would not have corrected in that situation since you had control of your dog and they got in her personal space. .

 

[jazzies mum]

I think she did just what she was supposed to do and so did you. Nice work! I would not have corrected in that situation since you had control of your dog and they got in her personal space. .

Thankyou! I am always second guessing myself as a lot of trainers say you should always stand in front of your dog and take charge. Jazz seems to need to do her job.

 

[MichiH]

I have noticed that Jazz will act protectively when suspect off leash dogs approach us. Most dogs are ok but when she sees a dogs behaviour as "off" or there are two dogs approaching like bulldozers she gets defensive.

For instance this morning we were doing our usual off leash walk and a couple of bully type dogs came out at us. Jazz greeted the young one when he approached but very soon didn't like him and definitely didn't like the older one coming in too. I called her to me and the others came in too. The owner was trying to call them off but they were "deaf". Jazz stood by me and aggresively sent them away when they came in but only took a few steps away from me. She was in full hackles and sounded truly vicious. The other dogs were getting worked up too by then and the owner started to dive around trying to grab his dogs, yelling and shouting. I stayed quiet and calm but was ready to kick any dog than tried to latch on.

My question is this. My feeling is that Jazz was performing her duty and hehaving with appropriate force to defend us. To correct her felt wrong to me and staying calm and static so she didn't rev up any further seemed the best course. Was I right or was there a better way to handle the situation. To be fair she totally ignored the man who was in a high state of excitement and ducking and diving with outstretched arms all around us. She was just keeping the dogs away.

Agree, she did what she was supposed to do as it didn’t feel right and seemed unsafe to her. I also agree I would not correct her for it either. You did the right thing too by remaining calm kuddos to you both!

We had two off leash dogs charge us a few weeks ago. Pepper was on leash and I yelled get your dogs, owner was “deaf” and did nothing, Pepper reacted similar to Jazz. Her hackles up, loud aggressive barking and lunging. I felt so bad as she had her prong on and I was next to her about to kick a dog like you. She wouldn’t have let me in front of her lol. She felt threatened and so did I as we were minding our own business and that happened.

So you both did the right thing! I’m sorry that happened to you both it’s not fun and super annoying how some- most owners have no control of their dogs. Good job Jazz and momma

 

[Kaiser2016]

I like her reaction and would react the same way. I’d rather Kaiser handle a situation without my interfering. In particular when I can see the dog has things under control.

 

[Ravenbird]

The other dogs were getting worked up too by then and the owner started to dive around trying to grab his dogs, yelling and shouting. I stayed quiet and calm but was ready to kick any dog than tried to latch on.

I want to say you did the right thing, but it's always a case by case and your instincts in that moment. And i do want to add the "why" of stepping between the loose dogs and your dog and taking a protective stance.

I know exactly that description of Jazz:

She was in full hackles and sounded truly vicious.

This is a full on challenge to the loose dogs. Every bit of this is not only saying "stay away" but "I'll tear you from limb to limb". Any dog-aggressive dog but especially Bully breeds are escalated by this behavior. With them being loose and deaf to their owner and that they could work together attacking Jazz, I personally would have taken my dogs collar and held her just behind my knee and raised my free hand at the dogs and yelled. This sounds like dog-on-dog aggression and sometimes a human can break up that staring & daring. My intent would be first and foremost, prevent injury to my dog. The action would be more like teaming up with Jazz to help drive the loose dogs away without a fight while also protecting her, not at all telling her she's wrong or punishing her.

Again, you only have a few seconds in cases like this and you have to make quick decisions. With your brief description it sounds as if the dogs were not being human aggressive (they stopped to sniff Jazz then it all went to hell) so you were not the target. Jazz was correct & noble in self-defense, but if those two jumped her it would have been a mess. As always on the internets it's hard to see what you saw and I'm not saying you did anything wrong, just trying to explain why I advocate stepping up.

 

[jazzies mum]

This is a full on challenge to the loose dogs. Every bit of this is not only saying "stay away" but "I'll tear you from limb to limb". Any dog-aggressive dog but especially Bully breeds are escalated by this behavior. With them being loose and deaf to their owner and that they could work together attacking Jazz, I personally would have taken my dogs collar and held her just behind my knee and raised my free hand at the dogs and yelled. This sounds like dog-on-dog aggression and sometimes a human can break up that staring & daring. My intent would be first and foremost, prevent injury to my dog. The action would be more like teaming up with Jazz to help drive the loose dogs away without a fight while also protecting her, not at all telling her she's wrong or punishing her.

This would be my ideal way of dealing with situations like this and have tried similar before. I did find that me yelling and moving towards an attacking dog caused Jazz to amp up further. She looks to me for visual clues and follows those more than commands when the chips are down.
You are right though. Every situation is different and you have to hope you react well in each. I ALWAYS go over things in my mind to see what I could have done better!

 

[Ddski5]

Good job…
Takes a lot of courage and confidence to trust your Doberman because it could easily go south. Staying calm, constantly assessing the situation and sitting back to allow Jazz be Jazz.

There is a double edge sword here…
1. Jump in, shield and protect them from harm/injury. Do this and it may be perceived as you correcting them from being in protection mode. From then on they may be reluctant because they don’t want to get reprimanded.
2. Don’t protect them and allow them to do…and possibly a physical fight ensues and they get hurt.

Where to draw the line?

This happened to me a couple of times with Ragnar and I can tell you I was on pins/needles the entire time.

 

[jazzies mum]

Good job…
Takes a lot of courage and confidence to trust your Doberman because it could easily go south. Staying calm, constantly assessing the situation and sitting back to allow Jazz be Jazz.

There is a double edge sword here…
1. Jump in, shield and protect them from harm/injury. Do this and it may be perceived as you correcting them from being in protection mode. From then on they may be reluctant because they don’t want to get reprimanded.
2. Don’t protect them and allow them to do…and possibly a physical fight ensues and they get hurt.

Where to draw the line?

This happened to me a couple of times with Ragnar and I can tell you I was on pins/needles the entire time.

I think that there are some instances where there is actually very little you can do to stop an escalating fight if the other owner has no control of their dog/dogs.

I actually ended up on the ground once kicking and blocking a dog intent on getting to Jazz. (All happened very fast and I fell). Had one hand on Jazzies collar holding her back while I defended her. The result was three nasty bites to me and one for Jazz. This was one dog only, two would have been awful and I honestly don't think I was thinking at all, just acting.

 

[Ravenbird]

I honestly don't think I was thinking at all, just acting

The times we've been rushed by loose dogs I didn't think (there just isn't time!) I just acted, Asha was young and I didn't have a good handle on her brazen behavior yet and you know she's a never-back-down kind of dog. It was all I could do to hold her behind me, but like you stated, I just acted - instinctively protected her. Which brings me to this thought:

1. Jump in, shield and protect them from harm/injury. Do this and it may be perceived as you correcting them from being in protection mode. From then on they may be reluctant because they don’t want to get reprimanded.

Totally depends on the dog. There was zero back-down on my dogs end and like Jazz, the holding back just intensified her drive, so it very much felt like team work. And you know how these dogs read us like a book. They see you stepping up to the plate and being aggressive to the loose dog just like they were doing? I think most Dobermans whether brazen or timid would see this as "yeah boy, we're a team now". I corrected my dog dozens of times for staring or hairing up or growling at another dog that was in control of its owner because defense was not necessary and totally uncalled for.

and

2. Don’t protect them and allow them to do…and possibly a physical fight ensues and they get hurt.

The bottom line is that if a dog gets attacked by another dog 90% of the time it will become either very dog aggressive or very fearful of other dogs whether it gets physically hurt or not. It becomes a major setback in all aspects if they have a public-outing type of life. My thought is I never ever want to see my dog in a contact dog fight. It's a lose lose lose situation.

 

[MichiH]

The times we've been rushed by loose dogs I didn't think (there just isn't time!) I just acted, Asha was young and I didn't have a good handle on her brazen behavior yet and you know she's a never-back-down kind of dog. It was all I could do to hold her behind me, but like you stated, I just acted - instinctively protected her. Which brings me to this thought:

Totally depends on the dog. There was zero back-down on my dogs end and like Jazz, the holding back just intensified her drive, so it very much felt like team work. And you know how these dogs read us like a book. They see you stepping up to the plate and being aggressive to the loose dog just like they were doing? I think most Dobermans whether brazen or timid would see this as "yeah boy, we're a team now". I corrected my dog dozens of times for staring or hairing up or growling at another dog that was in control of its owner because defense was not necessary and totally uncalled for.

and

The bottom line is that if a dog gets attacked by another dog 90% of the time it will become either very dog aggressive or very fearful of other dogs whether it gets physically hurt or not. It becomes a major setback in all aspects if they have a public-outing type of life. My thought is I never ever want to see my dog in a contact dog fight. It's a lose lose lose situation.

Completely agree with you on the “team” explanation. My son saw the incident with Pepper and I, when I stepped up and yelled at the other dogs.

He said mom, Pepper got worse when you yelled and she went off. She sure did intensify when I look back at that day those 2 dogs charged us.

In any event, you just act and do what’s safest for you and your dog. You did just perfect @jazzies mum we always question and pick things like this apart, but you’re safe and Jazz is safe. You’re a good momma!

 

[Kswoodssue]

Interesting, as my husband had a similar situation just yesterday. A neighbor’s dog from 2 doors down came into our yard, off leash, while my husband was close by. Sasha went from stiff legged barking, to charging the intruder off the property. She came immediately when my husband called her, and did not go off the property. No one was bitten. Good girl!