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Establishing Pack Leader & Earning Respect

RexsMom

Notable member
My boy will be 10 months in 2 weeks. The dreaded Doberteens :eek: His parents were very well trained & both had great temperaments. I had done hours and hours of research before I decided a Doberman is the breed I wanted in my life. I knew from the beginning that they were a strong stubborn breed & not like the others I've had in my life (poodle, greyhound, & pits). Rex is by FAR the biggest challenge compared to the rest when it comes to training, so I knew immediately "positive reinforcement" training wouldn't do anything for me when it came to obedience.

Rex is a great dog. He is super friendly towards people (including kids) & other dogs, but behind closed doors he is a totally different dog. My main problem with Rex currently is the nipping. I was hoping after his teething stage he would grow out of it like most people say. Not the case for us. He is now around 75lbs & when he gets too hyper or wants attention, he will start nipping. And if it escalates too much, it's full on biting. I'm assuming it's a dominance thing rather than aggression issues since he only does it to me.

I've had 2 trainers come in to help me out, and they both told me almost immediately the problem with Rex is that he doesn't respect me as pack leader and that I need to work on my energy towards him. For a while my energy switched from "Ahh razor sharp puppy teeth coming at me!" to when the adult teeth came in it was "I ain't having none of your crap!". But now I'm genuinely afraid because he is getting really strong & realizing this is not something he is just going to "grow out of". And he can tell I'm afraid, so he is taking advantage of that.

Hours of research was studied, everything was tried. NILIF since day one which I will do the rest of his life, time outs, redirect, side submission, crated, eating before him, you name it I did it. Today I just started trying keeping him leashed up to me which seems to be making progress so far hopefully!

My main question. What did you find helped most for you to get your dog to respect you? Is this just a Doberteen thing that your pup grew out of?

I should also add Rex HIGHLY prefers men over women. He will nip at my boyfriend from time to time, but he is always hesitant when he does. He also gets a ton of exercise! Big walks, runs in the field, & playing with other dogs multiple times a day.
 
Frustrating isn't it? If it is nipping rather than full on biting then I suspect that you will just need to persist. With my girl what finally made the difference is that I would see what was coming and be ready to grab her jaw and squeeze and hold until she was ready to concede. It took some time, and she would give it another try occasionally to see if it resulted in the same. The thing is that they are all different and what works for one 'dobe might not work for another. Just remember to not finch away from him or give off tentative vibes or he will play on that! :) I would grab Jazz and then move in to stand over her until her eyes said, "ok mum", then release and a quick reward for compliance. (Reward was just a pat and happy voice)
 
Frustrating isn't it? If it is nipping rather than full on biting then I suspect that you will just need to persist. With my girl what finally made the difference is that I would see what was coming and be ready to grab her jaw and squeeze and hold until she was ready to concede. It took some time, and she would give it another try occasionally to see if it resulted in the same. The thing is that they are all different and what works for one 'dobe might not work for another. Just remember to not finch away from him or give off tentative vibes or he will play on that! :) I would grab Jazz and then move in to stand over her until her eyes said, "ok mum", then release and a quick reward for compliance. (Reward was just a pat and happy voice)

Thank you! That is the main technique I’ve used & have for a while now. Maybe just the teenage stage is giving him a bit more drive. Do you remember how long it took/how old your girl was to finally get the hint and stopped? :wacky:
 
He also gets a ton of exercise! Big walks, runs in the field, & playing with other dogs multiple times a day.


I would give him less free play and add in more training time. Trust me the mental stim will tire him out just as much as much if not more. Start with several short training sessions a day and extend them as well as add more and more things for him to learn.
Keep it fun so he enjoys and looks forward to it and always end on a good note. Before you know it he'll being looking at you as the person that controls his good times and will do whatever it takes to get some of that fun.
 
I would say, never move away from him. Let's see if I can explain that in text. :)

We show so much to our dogs in very subtle ways. Simple body language that they pick up on that we may never even be aware of.

One is backing up or picking up our hands when something like a nip comes our way. Of course, its natural instinct to pick up your hand so it doesn't get nipped or to back up to get out of the way of a charging Doberman.

But that little move is the mile that they take when you give them that inch. As soon as they see that they can back you up or make you afraid, they have the upper hand. It's the same way with horses. I remember years ago, when my daughter was helping me take the horses out of the stalls to bring them to the corral. When she opened the stall door, as soon as the horse started to step toward her, she backed up. It was just instinct for her to think she had to get out of the way. But it was the wrong thing to do. That subtle little movement gave the horse the okay to keep going and she just pushed past her, knocking her down! I said, never, ever let them do that to you again! All you have to do is stand firm and be in their face! Walk toward them and back them up! Even if it meant raising your hands and yelling.

The same with your dog. Walk into him. Pay attention to your body language. I bet there's times when he does something towards you and you have either stepped back or pulled back in some manner. That's all it took for him to know he has the upper hand.

Take it back! :bat:
 
What is your method for teaching wrong behavior? Do you use a negative reinforcer? Your negative reinforcer must also be followed by some form of correction so that the negative reinforcer will eventually have value when heard. I don’t like to correct my dogs but when I do it has to mean something. Do you use a prong collar or e-collar?
 
I would give him less free play and add in more training time. Trust me the mental stim will tire him out just as much as much if not more. Start with several short training sessions a day and extend them as well as add more and more things for him to learn.
Keep it fun so he enjoys and looks forward to it and always end on a good note. Before you know it he'll being looking at you as the person that controls his good times and will do whatever it takes to get some of that fun.

I should've added that he gets lots of mental stimulation a day since he's fed through puzzle toys :) But I will admit I have slacked on training sessions. I'll definitely bring those back into our daily routine! What does a basic training routine look like to you? 5 minutes of just making him do tricks & basic obedience? :scratch:
 
What is your method for teaching wrong behavior? Do you use a negative reinforcer? Your negative reinforcer must also be followed by some form of correction so that the negative reinforcer will eventually have value when heard. I don’t like to correct my dogs but when I do it has to mean something. Do you use a prong collar or e-collar?
I've recently been putting his prong collar on in the house when he's really active, but not time for fun or a walk yet. If I he nips, it's a quick pop followed by a firm 'no bite'. I find he will stop, but a few seconds later he'll go back in for a nip. The collar isn't on too often since it's recommended as a walking tool, maybe keep it on more? Of course with supervision & not in the crate.
I also keep it on if I let him off leash in the field for a run or a good game of fetch with the Chuck-It. This being because when he is running, some times he will notice me, charge at me (most times just because he knows to come back), but the odd time he will jump up and full blown bite me. Always the forearm or hand. I think it's either dominance or rough play (which isn't allowed, not even tug with toys anymore), but it's still scary of course. I'll admit that after his first time of doing this, I've been nervous, and he can tell. I'm a 95lbs female & he's almsot as tall as me which makes it scarier. I will even back away a bit as he comes towards me, I'm going to try walking towards him confidently as he does now. Once he grasps on to me or my clothing, he gets a pops on the prong with firm 'no bite' until he stops.
 
Thank you! That is the main technique I’ve used & have for a while now. Maybe just the teenage stage is giving him a bit more drive. Do you remember how long it took/how old your girl was to finally get the hint and stopped? :wacky:
If I remember rightly we had mostly finished with this type of nipping by about 10 months, but she would still have another try every now and then. By 12 months nearly nothing, but it would cross her mind sometimes requiring me to give her the eye and a warning! Jazz isn't a super dominant personality though and males might take a bit more convincing maybe.
 
What does a basic training routine look like to you? 5 minutes of just making him do tricks & basic obedience?


We usually start when young with simple sit, down, stay. I add things as they mature and make the times they have to do things longer. Of course leave it is a biggie. We add things like flip, twist, look and recall. Then they graduate to bigger task like picking up toys they seen to leave all over the place. They also learn to pull a basket around to pick up laundry because hubby can't seem to figure that one out. :rolleyes:
 
If I remember rightly we had mostly finished with this type of nipping by about 10 months, but she would still have another try every now and then. By 12 months nearly nothing, but it would cross her mind sometimes requiring me to give her the eye and a warning! Jazz isn't a super dominant personality though and males might take a bit more convincing maybe.

This makes me feel a lot better that it took around that time (although sorry for you! :rofl:) . Everyone I ask about nipping says 6 months and their dog was done, but their breeds being labs or something. Glad this website exists!
 
I'd stop using the puzzle or ball feeders. Do you just load it and give it to him, or does he work for it first? Without working for it, he might as well be free feeding. He doesn't respect you, yet he still gets lots of fun exercise and off leash time plus doggy play time? And free food to top it off? What does he need you for?

Put his daily kibble ration in a jar. Reach into that jar several times a day and feed him through out the day each time giving a different command. Go through all the commands he knows. If he nips, no more food.

You will need to really stabilize your nerves to do this because he'll be eating out of your hand and I do believe my dog can read me even faster when I'm touching him. If he's a different dog outside, maybe try this outside first so it boosts your confidence. You say you're genuinely afraid at this point so perhaps having your bf there will help. He also needs to discourage the nipping at him. I can't remember if it was you or the melanistic dog owner, but someone had a nippy dog and a bf that would laugh when nipping would happen. This is really serious and should be treated seriously by everyone.

Any mouthing behavior should not be tolerated, I'd say even at a young age, because this is exactly the kind of scenario no one wants to deal with. A confident (beyond belligerent in my estimation) male Doberman fueled by testosterone and all those teeth :nono:

I'd also eliminate the doggy play sessions. Off leash time with a dog that charges you? No way. He can use his newly found free time to think about the new regime.
 
Hellooo, i am a newbie in owning a dobbie and in this website too.. Haha.. Its a very reliable forum though, love it so much..

Maybe u need a higher pitch yelp when he nips? And if it reoccurs like 3 times put him on his crate for time out, just so he knows, its not allowed and u didnt like it..
 
I've recently been putting his prong collar on in the house when he's really active, but not time for fun or a walk yet. If I he nips, it's a quick pop followed by a firm 'no bite'. I find he will stop, but a few seconds later he'll go back in for a nip. The collar isn't on too often since it's recommended as a walking tool, maybe keep it on more? Of course with supervision & not in the crate.
I also keep it on if I let him off leash in the field for a run or a good game of fetch with the Chuck-It. This being because when he is running, some times he will notice me, charge at me (most times just because he knows to come back), but the odd time he will jump up and full blown bite me. Always the forearm or hand. I think it's either dominance or rough play (which isn't allowed, not even tug with toys anymore), but it's still scary of course. I'll admit that after his first time of doing this, I've been nervous, and he can tell. I'm a 95lbs female & he's almsot as tall as me which makes it scarier. I will even back away a bit as he comes towards me, I'm going to try walking towards him confidently as he does now. Once he grasps on to me or my clothing, he gets a pops on the prong with firm 'no bite' until he stops.

In reading this, I believe you are doing things correctly, you just need to be firm and consistent.

If I feel the need, I will put on prong collar with a short 3ft leash. When he use to act up- nip, jump up, counter surf, chase cats- he got a strong quick pop with the short leash to the prong. Ragnar is strong willed and a bull- sometimes I would have to lift up high on the leash and hang him until I felt like he understood. Really did not have to hang him too much unless he was in crazy eye mode being uncontrollably reactive around other dogs at soccer fields.

Not only did this let him know the behavior was unacceptable but also that I was the boss and he was to listen.
 
From what you’ve described, I agree with the trainers, he doesn’t respect you and sees you as a playmate. I watch my two dobies do this all the time - nip and charge each other. You need to make it clear what is acceptable play and what’s not. I would NOT use high pitched squeals or ouches as this will just excite him more. Just a firm no. Do you give him the knee when he’s going in for a nip or charge? I still use the knee when Shadow gets over excited and starts to jump on me. The knee is a wonderful thing - it’s just the right distance so they can’t get to you. I also agree that he can sense your fear. One of my first trainers told the group to chew minty gum - its supposed to mask their ability to smell fear. Don’t know if it’s true or not but I was chewing it during every class haha. (We had some crazy German Shepard’s in there that just barked their head off).
 
Hellooo, i am a newbie in owning a dobbie and in this website too.. Haha.. Its a very reliable forum though, love it so much..

Maybe u need a higher pitch yelp when he nips? And if it reoccurs like 3 times put him on his crate for time out, just so he knows, its not allowed and u didnt like it..
Never yelp or show weakness when you get bit. It is a correction and redirect to a toy or something else that your dog is allowed to bite
 
Thank you everyone for the inputs! I'm going to tag you all instead of writing a million replies to save on alerts haha.

@Kaiser2016 I actually stopped puzzle feeders a couple days ago. I mainly used them during winter because it was too cold for outdoor exercise. I always put a bit of food in his bowl, have him do a bunch of tricks, eat, then repeat about 4 times a feeding. Also it don't believe it was me you're thinking of. My boyfriend doesn't tolerate his behaviour at all thankfully, unfortunately he works 2 jobs & isn't around to help much. I took him to the park today, and no bites thankfully.
On Friday when he bit me about 10 mins of being there I immediately took him home. And I was MAD. And he knew. The walk home ears were down & was well behaved. As soon as we walked through the door he walked right into his crate.
Definitely will work on that with simple nips before he goes back because that moment of respect felt really good! :woot:

@My2Girls @Doberman Gang I agree. I've tried high pitch squeals in the very beginning & immediately found the did no progress. It's more so a tactic for other breeds. Being firm, working on your energy, & tools are the way to go in my opinion. Positive reinforcement will get you nowhere. I always feel I sound pretentious when I say "Dobermans are like other dogs" when other's try to help me out with these things, but they really aren't. They are a strong, powerful, VERY smart, stubborn dog. They will read you like a book to get what they want. I will for sure try the gum trick! A trainer taught me about the knee thing, guess it just kind of feel out of my head :rolleyes: Will bring it back when it's needed!
 

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