E collar and invisible fence

[MichiH]

Thoughts on this.

I just tired to work the e collar in with Pepper. I used it on beep and vibration only with commands, was with her, and rewarded her.

She acted as though it almost killed her and panicked. I felt horrible.

We do have the invisible fence and I’m thinking they’re just too closely related and causing her confusion and panic?

I used the e collar inside and on our walk then quit it on the walk.

I’d like to use it for recall, not chasing the cat and squirrels, but not sure it’s a good fit for her.

 

[remy]

I’ve heard the vibration can actually be more aversive than the stim for some dogs. I don’t use the e-collar a lot, but whenever I use the vibration it’s more to stop a “bad” behavior. For example, if he’s outside and trying to eat something off the ground, first I’ll tell him to “leave it”, if he ignores that then I’ll use the e-collar vibration to disrupt the behavior.

I use a low level stim for recall. I learned to figure out what their “working level” is by starting indoors with no distractions and go up one level at a time (starting from the bottom/0) until you see some sort of reaction. An ear flick, turn of the head, etc… Just a little reaction that they acknowledge they’ve felt the stim. Start with whatever that level is for things like recall and you can go up in level if needed. I think for Remy this was an 7 or 8/100, although a bit higher when there are more distractions present.

 

[MichiH]

I’ve heard the vibration can actually be more aversive than the stim for some dogs. I don’t use the e-collar a lot, but whenever I use the vibration it’s more to stop a “bad” behavior. For example, if he’s outside and trying to eat something off the ground, first I’ll tell him to “leave it”, if he ignores that then I’ll use the e-collar vibration to disrupt the behavior.

I use a low level stim for recall. I learned to figure out what their “working level” is by starting indoors with no distractions and go up one level at a time (starting from the bottom/0) until you see some sort of reaction. An ear flick, turn of the head, etc… Just a little reaction that they acknowledge they’ve felt the stim. Start with whatever that level is for things like recall and you can go up in level if needed. I think for Remy this was an 7 or 8/100, although a bit higher when there are more distractions present.

Thank you for this information very helpful and I will start it again this week.

Also, I just realized I put dollar

 

[jazzies mum]

I taught Jazz recall using a very light stim. Once she was responding well I tried using vibrate. She was totally distressed by it and panicked! It was probably a year before I tried it again and by then she had a default of "return to me" for anything she doesn't understand, so now the vibrate is just about all I need to use.

 

[Ravenbird]

Yes, Asha too was bothered more by the vibrate than the stim, but learned eventually that it was not a big deal, just me getting her attention. I can't use it on vibrate if Reckless is around because if Reckless hears the vibration, she thinks she's in trouble. Reckless can't hear the stim though.

@MichiH continue to work with it as suggested at very low level stem, Pepper will understand the connection soon enough. If the invisible fence is mostly a tone or vibrate as a precursor to a strong stimulation then she might associate those with the fence that punishment is coming. If this is the case, I would try just a very low stim and avoid the tone/vibrate. Did you get a quality collar with about 100 levels? When she "acted as though it almost killed her and panicked" what did she do? You said you used commands and reward, so I'm curious where/when the panic happened, if you used the tone before, during or after the command and if she obeyed the command and got reward, where was the panic response involved? It's hard to tell you where things went wrong by your description, unless it's simply the fence association.

Try again and let us know how it goes. Video it for yourself (no need to share unless you want to) so you can see if your timing is right, study what you do & say and what Peppers response is. My best Ah-ha moments come watching videos of my training because I can slow it down and see where I went wrong.

 

[MichiH]

Yes, Asha too was bothered more by the vibrate than the stim, but learned eventually that it was not a big deal, just me getting her attention. I can't use it on vibrate if Reckless is around because if Reckless hears the vibration, she thinks she's in trouble. Reckless can't hear the stim though.

@MichiH continue to work with it as suggested at very low level stem, Pepper will understand the connection soon enough. If the invisible fence is mostly a tone or vibrate as a precursor to a strong stimulation then she might associate those with the fence that punishment is coming. If this is the case, I would try just a very low stim and avoid the tone/vibrate. Did you get a quality collar with about 100 levels? When she "acted as though it almost killed her and panicked" what did she do? You said you used commands and reward, so I'm curious where/when the panic happened, if you used the tone before, during or after the command and if she obeyed the command and got reward, where was the panic response involved? It's hard to tell you where things went wrong by your description, unless it's simply the fence association.

Try again and let us know how it goes. Video it for yourself (no need to share unless you want to) so you can see if your timing is right, study what you do & say and what Peppers response is. My best Ah-ha moments come watching videos of my training because I can slow it down and see where I went wrong.

Thank you for this!

I will work with her today on a low level stim and see how that goes. Video is a wonderful idea also. I’ll do that too.

As for when we tried the beep/vibrate, I would say the command and beep her which didn’t go well and she went into confusion and panic. Next I tried a command first and followed by the vibrate, again confusion and panic. She ran up to me both times, not sure if it was obeying the command “hurry” or fear and coming to mom for help. I’m leaning more towards coming to mom for help, due to her behavior and demeanor. Therefore, I think it’s too closely related to the invisible fence. The fence will vibrate then beep, the beep is right before you cross and get a shock, so you’re right punishment is coming. This happened in the house. When I tried both outside in the yard she really was confused and panicked again assuming the fence. She was almost like why is this happening I am in my yard not on the yard line. You know?

The vibrate wasn’t such a panic for her, but the beep was, and that is where I think she’s confused due to the fence.

 

[Ravenbird]

She ran up to me both times, not sure if it was obeying the command “hurry” or fear and coming to mom for help.

This should always be the response when first using the collar. Some people say the dogs run away from you, but I've never ever seen that (and I was hoping that was not what Pepper did!). They come to you and stick like glue. It's a good thing - she trusts that you are there for her.

 

[MichiH]

This should always be the response when first using the collar. Some people say the dogs run away from you, but I've never ever seen that (and I was hoping that was not what Pepper did!). They come to you and stick like glue. It's a good thing - she trusts that you are there for her.

Whew what a relief to hear this, thank you. I felt terrible the rest of the day like I hurt her

Thanks so much for the help all of you guys!!!

 

[Rits]

I would not use the beep since that is what the fence does and she's learned that is what the beep means. This would be confusing to her, imo. The vibrate for some dogs can be upsetting but I pair mine with treats. It turns into the same as my voice and they come running when they feel it knowing its treat time!

Also make sure you use a leash while using the ecollar and pair them together. A physical pull on the leash "come" while running backwards a few times for reminder what the pressure on the leash/collar mean...then pair that physical pull on the leash with the lowest stim she will respond to. As soon as she turns around and commits to the recall "Yes!!!" right away and then reward when she fully comes in. Practice this for weeks to months before fading the leash out all together. When I'm teaching the recall I don't call them when they are looking at me because I want them to learn that the turning around and immediately come to me is what I want and it really becomes habit for them, that "turning away from the thing they were doing" as when you really need that recall to come in handy will likely be when they are facing or running away.

Figure out what her stim level is before you start training and ideally do that inside. You will see an ear flick, or slight head turn, or scratch at their collar when they notice it. Any kind of jumping, running away or yelping is too high (unless emergency). When outdoors or in new environments, you may have to turn the collar up by 5-10 levels. The working level needed is always an adjustment depending on the distractions.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I guess I have never used the vibration. I had not thought of it maybe being more disturbing to some dogs, so that sure could be a thing.

What I was going to say was: Hopefully since she was so strongly affected by that experience with the e-collar, she will really respect it now and you'll have an easy time of things.

Taking my boy Zephyr as an example, I think that is the case for us. He really doesn't like to get zapped. He's a large dog with thick, profuse neck skin and he's from some pretty tough (on paper at least) genes. He becomes a different dog in the house when the collar is on. Actually, and this was not trained or intended, but he stops being a pest (think about around the dinner table in the evenings) when I go and get the e-collar from the drawer where it's kept. He just lays down like a little angel who wasn't repeatedly putting his chin over the dinner table, and closely investigating what's on people's forks. In fact, if I simply verbalize to a family member that I am going to go get the "zapper collar" his behavior changes.

Bear in mind, please, that I don't use the collar just because he's doing something I don't like. I use it when he has disobeyed a direct command that he has previously demonstrated that he is able to follow.

 

[BGpa]

I would not use the beep since that is what the fence does and she's learned that is what the beep means. This would be confusing to her, imo. The vibrate for some dogs can be upsetting but I pair mine with treats. It turns into the same as my voice and they come running when they feel it knowing its treat time!

Also make sure you use a leash while using the ecollar and pair them together. A physical pull on the leash "come" while running backwards a few times for reminder what the pressure on the leash/collar mean...then pair that physical pull on the leash with the lowest stim she will respond to. As soon as she turns around and commits to the recall "Yes!!!" right away and then reward when she fully comes in. Practice this for weeks to months before fading the leash out all together. When I'm teaching the recall I don't call them when they are looking at me because I want them to learn that the turning around and immediately come to me is what I want and it really becomes habit for them, that "turning away from the thing they were doing" as when you really need that recall to come in handy will likely be when they are facing or running away.

Figure out what her stim level is before you start training and ideally do that inside. You will see an ear flick, or slight head turn, or scratch at their collar when they notice it. Any kind of jumping, running away or yelping is too high (unless emergency). When outdoors or in new environments, you may have to turn the collar up by 5-10 levels. The working level needed is always an adjustment depending on the distractions.

This is how the LEO K9 trainer explained use of e-collar to us for obedience on recall. You MUST build in the positive base on the recall first, starting with a long line and positive rewards so she knows what is expected. The vibrate or very light zap is to break her focus when "over threshold" and not hearing you. Like a tap on the shoulder...."hey, I'm talking here!"...

The other simple use is as a firm NO on something unsafe off leash- a higher level of zap that is NOT connected to your command- like snake avoidance training- its the hand of god saying "dont touch that!"

There is a really good long involved discussion on e-collar by Mike Ellis thats comprehensive on pro's and con's and various approaches.

Trust your gut, go slow. You CAN induce anxiety for things unrelated to what you are training and then its more time and work to fix those. Or worse, induce owner directed aggression if the dog perceives the threat is you.

Go slow, listen to trainers with experience in e-collars and learn from the dog in front of you.

 

[MichiH]

I guess I have never used the vibration. I had not thought of it maybe being more disturbing to some dogs, so that sure could be a thing.

What I was going to say was: Hopefully since she was so strongly affected by that experience with the e-collar, she will really respect it now and you'll have an easy time of things.

Taking my boy Zephyr as an example, I think that is the case for us. He really doesn't like to get zapped. He's a large dog with thick, profuse neck skin and he's from some pretty tough (on paper at least) genes. He becomes a different dog in the house when the collar is on. Actually, and this was not trained or intended, but he stops being a pest (think about around the dinner table in the evenings) when I go and get the e-collar from the drawer where it's kept. He just lays down like a little angel who wasn't repeatedly putting his chin over the dinner table, and closely investigating what's on people's forks. In fact, if I simply verbalize to a family member that I am going to go get the "zapper collar" his behavior changes.

Bear in mind, please, that I don't use the collar just because he's doing something I don't like. I use it when he has disobeyed a direct command that he has previously demonstrated that he is able to follow.

You know today we worked on it with a low level stim outside and recall. Once I put it on her she knew what was up. I let her get busy sniffing had her leash on to direct to me, and then called her name and hurry! She ran right back to me. A few and only a few times she didn’t so i said the command again, hit the low level stim, and a little leash pull she looked at me and ran to me.

Even when I put the collar on her today, which is the second time, she got a little goofy and then did well once outside in open space. I think she picked up on it already after our beep/vibration incident 2 weeks ago.

We will still work on it daily. I tried to reward with kibble which always works, she hardly wanted it, I do think she was stressed initially. I felt bad, but she got over it and checked in with me over and over on her own. More so than normal when we go out for walks.

 

[Ravenbird]

You know today we worked on it with a low level stim outside and recall. Once I put it on her she knew what was up. I let her get busy sniffing had her leash on to direct to me, and then called her name and hurry! She ran right back to me. A few and only a few times she didn’t so i said the command again, hit the low level stim, and a little leash pull she looked at me and ran to me.

Even when I put the collar on her today, which is the second time, she got a little goofy and then did well once outside in open space. I think she picked up on it already after our beep/vibration incident 2 weeks ago.

We will still work on it daily. I tried to reward with kibble which always works, she hardly wanted it, I do think she was stressed initially. I felt bad, but she got over it and checked in with me over and over on her own. More so than normal when we go out for walks.

Pretty soon she'll love seeing you bring the e-collar out because it means off leash hikes. I never hike without one on Asha - it's our safety net for anything that may come up - but I rarely ever have to use it anymore, so it's just become an indication that we're going out to have some fun. Like @Oh Little Oji was saying though, if I put it on in the house it's usually because she's done some explosive barking and won't settle. I don't even turn it on, I just put it on her and tell her Quiet and she goes and lays down. I think you're over the hump on most of your behavior training so now it will mostly be back up to what she already knows and occasionally needs to be reinforced. Keep training with it, until you're both comfortable with it - you're doing great and so is Pepper!

 

[BGpa]

"The vibrate for some dogs can be upsetting but I pair mine with treats. It turns into the same as my voice and they come running when they feel it knowing its treat time!"
This is a very good idea- I think I am gonna steal it fir recalls. Bonnie is getting pretty good on voice plus hand signal recalls, and I'm thinking of using the vibrate now as a silent (or far distant with lots of noise) recall if she cant see me...

I routinely test the collar is working with handset by placing my hand in collar on her neck with the vibrate, so she isnt troubled by it, but associates it with something fun; going for a walk etc.

I also use a Dogtra 1900 recommended by a working dog trainer: very simple long range waterproof, works fairly well but have to turn it up after getting soaked in saltwater. I rarely use the zap anymore, only as someone said- if she refises a command i know she heard and ignores, or might be way over threshold excited in prey drive.
As in DONT.EVEN.THINK.ABOUT.CHASING.THAT.
BLACK and WHITE Striped CAT!!!"

You can order a four short prong adapter to replace the longer dual prong to space out the pressure and reduce irritation on dobe skin.

 

[BGpa]

You know today we worked on it with a low level stim outside and recall. Once I put it on her she knew what was up. I let her get busy sniffing had her leash on to direct to me, and then called her name and hurry! She ran right back to me. A few and only a few times she didn’t so i said the command again, hit the low level stim, and a little leash pull she looked at me and ran to me.

Even when I put the collar on her today, which is the second time, she got a little goofy and then did well once outside in open space. I think she picked up on it already after our beep/vibration incident 2 weeks ago.

We will still work on it daily. I tried to reward with kibble which always works, she hardly wanted it, I do think she was stressed initially. I felt bad, but she got over it and checked in with me over and over on her own. More so than normal when we go out for walks.

PS: apologies here for the slow edit after and any "assuming" - I see you are already getting good advice and listening-
my generic suggestions are meant also for later readers just on whats worked for me based on other trainers advice, and
Also not meant as from me as any sort of expert, as I am a first dobe noob here.

PS2: congrats on getting back out there having fun on trails after that weird rabid coon encounter. Thats a once in a lifetime "fun time", and best part is that Pepper knows you got her back!

 

[MichiH]

PS: apologies here for the slow edit after and any "assuming" - I see you are already getting good advice and listening-
my generic suggestions are meant also for later readers just on whats worked for me based on other trainers advice, and
Also not meant as from me as any sort of expert, as I am a first dobe noob here.

PS2: congrats on getting back out there having fun on trails after that weird rabid coon encounter. Thats a once in a lifetime "fun time", and best part is that Pepper knows you got her back!

Oh no sorry at all! I appreciate all the advice and help, I am learning. You’re right good to make it a thread for later readers too!

I just had that reaction with her today and the collar as I put it on her. I thought I’d report it because it seems similar to what happen with @Oh Little Oji situation. Hoping it is it would make life easier haha.

Thank you we haven’t done major wooded trails still scared unfortunately. Today was a step though towards it haha, getting there!

And again thank you @BG1

 

[MichiH]

Pretty soon she'll love seeing you bring the e-collar out because it means off leash hikes. I never hike without one on Asha - it's our safety net for anything that may come up - but I rarely ever have to use it anymore, so it's just become an indication that we're going out to have some fun. Like @Oh Little Oji was saying though, if I put it on in the house it's usually because she's done some explosive barking and won't settle. I don't even turn it on, I just put it on her and tell her Quiet and she goes and lays down. I think you're over the hump on most of your behavior training so now it will mostly be back up to what she already knows and occasionally needs to be reinforced. Keep training with it, until you're both comfortable with it - you're doing great and so is Pepper!

I am just seeing this! So sorry! Thank you

Yes, you are correct we call it “zippy” lol and when I ask her “want to go play zippy?” She gets so excited and comes to me shaking with excitement and multiple spins.

I was really proud of her yesterday we were in the little bit of woods by the house, still afraid of the state park…She saw a huge buck and doe, she took off, I yelled out “hurry” and a low level stim, she came running back to me. Rewarded her with a small treat and praise. I know I shouldn’t have her off her leash, which we practice daily and I let her play in an open space, still I use “hurry”, stim and reward while we play.

After we train with zippy, we head out for a walk without her prong and she actually walks well! I have used the vibrate as she responded better to that than the beep, I use it for “no” “leave it” in regards to squirrels on walks. Again, she responds well.

So far so good!