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Dobermann Review article interview with Avi Marshak on the standard and c/d

Discussion in 'Canine News/Informative Articles' started by Dobs4ever, May 29, 2012.

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  1. Rits

    Rits Admin Administrative Staff Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I agree. In my limited experience, I actually have witnessed on numerous occasions throughout boards ( and even in my limited experience of attending events/shows) much more experienced breeders and enthusiasts reaching out to "noobs" Offering a chat or to even meet up with them at so and so show to talk in person. You find these people on facebook groups, breed/dog forums, and at events where dog/"x" breed enthusiasts gather. If one wants more knowledge, it isn't difficult to search out. Go where the dogs go. One of the reasons why I'll always recommend someone to attend a breed show to find knowledgeable enthusiasts is because of my personal experience with it. There will always be bad apples in every bunch no matter where you go. It is sad these bad apples have tainted your, and I'm sure many others, view. Ignore the haters and listen to those that help with constructive criticism and friendly guidance.

     
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  2. shadash

    shadash Notable member

    I find it interesting how many people have the exact same experience Von had. While I never had a death threat aimed at me. I have been banned from other forums for not being of a like mindset.

    I'm going to say something that might be a little "un-pc"... But I've always chalked it up to women and specifically older women that seem to always be involved in breeding. They tend to take things to extremes. The generally cattiness + meanness aimed at others is just something women do to each other. As the get older they get better at it. If you don't believe me go to a general labor site (mostly men) and see if anyone acts that way to each other. There's just no time to waste + a mission to complete / problem to solve.
     
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  3. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I've seen it for both sexes and at any age. It's just the way things are, and it is in every venue at some point.
    Maybe our Creator needs to do a better job of temperment in our breeding program. LOL! :eek::D:p
     
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  4. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I've said here before that I have always felt Doberman owners have so much in common that they should talk to each other collegially. It's why I've always tended to walk up to someone who has a Dobe on the street and talk to them. This talk of such contempt and division is surprising. Well, when I consider human nature, it's not.

    I mean it's common sense that those who "show" their dogs look down on those who don't or can't. Actually I dealt with some of this back when, with my BYB boy I started going to meetings of a nearby Doberman club – a club I wound up joining. People were nice enough, but I knew I had a lot to prove to them. Back then I took it as a challenge, and I think I succeeded. These days I wouldn't wast my time caring.

    One last note here: It's not the end-all and be-all whether someone actually shows or competes with their dog. Please realize that some of us train our dogs to high levels but do not opt for all the expense and driving around that it takes to compete. The only reason I can see for someone to have a problem with a dog owner not competing is that putting titles on deserving dogs does bring some recognition to the quality breeding, and the breed, and helps it be known which lines may be deserving of being bred.
     
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  5. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I think you're onto something here. Thanks. As a man, I'm not allowed to say it.

    I also think it's possible for breeders to feel a sense of power and ultimate authority. This may grow with age and experience.
     
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  6. salisa826

    salisa826 Hot Topics Subscriber

    I really have no business posting in this thread bc I'm a total newbie to the breed and quite honestly I don't understand all the abbreviations and such. But I do want to learn. Are there any sites or books that I could read to understand more?

    We got our pup from what probably considers a BYB. But maybe a step up. Both parents were imported from Europe from great bloodlines and had the health testing done prior to breeding.
    The dogs are well loved and part of the family. In fact they are really beautiful dogs. I'm pretty sure I paid a pretty penny for him.

    My husband had 2 doves growing up. The first make lived to 3 but died of heart problems. The second a red female lived til she was 12. She eventually went blind and became really depressed. Bc of this my father in law decided it was time to put her down. This really affected my husband. It took me a number of years to bring him around to having a dog. He fell in love with Denali. Now I only hope we can survive the puppy stage. I am working with a trainer. He is food driven and eager to learn. I'm sure there is more I should be doing with him. He has a relentless personality and does not give up or back down. But at the same time he loves to be loved.

    We start a puppy socialization class in a couple of weeks.

    I'm sorry I went off course with your thread


    Lisa Mom of 2 human children and 1 furbaby
     
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  7. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    If both parents were fully health tested and are from good pedigrees, I would say that they are NOT BYB'S! But that is my personal opinion.
     
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  8. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I'm glad you asked that question and gave those details. I second your question. I mean, both parents imports with great bloodlines? Of course "great" is very subjective, but really, it sounds like he's from pretty great stock. He also looks to me like he's gonna be a handsome guy. I'm jealous, as my pup looks like he's gonna have a small, unimpressive head which I hate.

    So, is it still a "BRB" if the people have imported from Europe and from "good" lines? Health testing done? Honest question!
     
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  9. Rex's mom

    Rex's mom Hot Topics Subscriber

    @salisa826 I think it sounds like you went to a pretty good breeder. Anyone who tries to get good bloodlines, health tests and has dogs with good temperament and looks and loves their dogs doesn't sound like a bad breeder.
    I try not to use the term BYB just because so many people have so many different views on what a BYB is. To me there are good breeders and not so good (or down right horrible). I think just because someone doesn't show or title their dogs doesn't mean that they are not a good breeder. I think if some one has a knowledge of the breed, studies line to try and improve their dogs, health tests and will be there for the new puppy owners and will take puppies back of something happens, that makes a good breeder.
    Also like you I'm more of a noob when it comes to Dobermans although I've had dogs throughout my life. I always love to learn more about the breed as well and any tips related to training and care (I'm a dog dork). It's always great to see where other people get their knowledge from.
     
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  10. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Great questions Dobie Wan- and you have to go way back to understand the purpose of "purebred" Bred with a purpose to IMPROVE the breed. Not but to have puppies for a friend. It is what started dog clubs, shows, trails etc. In the ancient days purebred were only allowed to be owned by royalty never the "common folk" so even then the purebred was to be honored. Peasants had dogs in the street.......the mutts if you will.

    Dog fanciers understand this purpose - join clubs to meet and support others who understand the value of the purebred and want to protect and preserve. You will often hear from those who do not even understand this very basic premise they don't want a show dog or many will even say they don't care about AKC reg. There are great puppies out there from health tested titled parents that there is no value in devaluing the breed to breed something that does not have this strong "pedigree" and heritage behind them.

    That brings up a good point - MOST want to have dogs to brag about in the pedigree - especially if you are looking for a dog to contribute to your bloodline. WHY - How would you know about those dogs if some "elite" breeders did not care enough to train, title and test their dog???? So to slam those who work train and show calling them "elite" like it is a disgrace still want to use what they put their time, money, heart and soul into or you would never know about that dog. BYB's use these dogs that were shown and campaigned to promote their "bloodlines" without putting anything in themselves. So yes show people are a little guarding of what they have stepped up and devoted their lives to. How can you say you respect what a dog has done so you know if it is a great dog or not but trash the "elite" who do step up and honor the breeding and heritage of any dog???

    Then look at some of the health problems that come on here seeking help and the "breeder" vanishes - no help. The "elite" stand behind their dogs and their families because they are responsible, they care, and the put their reputation on the line every time you step in the ring because some ya hoo is watching and always eager to criticize the effort.

    I do not want nor do I believe we need laws to prevent folks from breeding - it is our job as breeders to protect the breed and not put them in the hands of those who do not respect the world that created the breed. So yes anyone can breed and that is a problem we have to live with or we face restrictions that would only punish the good guys and the scum persist. I'm not for killing off the dogs to prevent some BYB from blindly breeding their subpar dogs. There will always be a market for them as some will hate the "elite" because they don't understand the purpose of breeding so they take a huge chance and hope for the best.

    I understand this is a pet forum for pet people. But pet people get no education if there are not some who know what they are doing here to share their knowledge. Then we get criticized for what we know. Should we play dumb??? and just let the blind lead the blind or should we care enough to try to shed some light from our side of the table even though we know we will get smashed daily for it. I know I stay because I care for the breed. I want to help dispel some of the misconceptions on what purebred and breeders are truly about and help us all come to a place of better understanding. Do I always say it right - NO but it is always the same message - I do not flip/flop back and forth I am clear in what I know and have learned about this breed.

    I detest the actions of BYB's who devalue the whole infa structure of the purebred dog world. They give us all a black eye and degrade our dogs to mutt level. I am not against mutts - some of the best dogs growing up were Heinz 57. My great love for dogs comes from my growing up and learning the value of a beloved pet. But when I matured I realized there was a whole new world out there called the "dog fancy" who trained , showed and competed with a Purebred. That is what purebreds are really about and those that don't make the cut for show or work make great pets for the families that do not care about the show , work ring and hence don't care the purpose of the breeding, but they want a nice purebred. But those pet families appreciate the hard work and effort you put in to the breeding to try to give them a special exceptional PET that is true to form and function. NOT deformed, diseased or insane.

    Every list started with some great "elite" breeders who came to share and became so discouraged and got sick at listening to all the AR garbage that filtered in so they left and no longer share their knowledge. EVERYONE looses. I do not think that helps the dogs and I care about the dogs first and foremost.

    So "elite" yes and proud of it. That does not mean that there are not some bad apples in the group but that does not devalue the real true "elite" people who are dedicated to learning and sharing our beautiful purebred dogs with those who appreciate them and the work that went into producing them.
     
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  11. FredC

    FredC Guest

    Just say my name for gods sake quit dancing around the bush...
    FWIW you have driven off more members here then any other single person since 2010. Whats that say about your brand of education?
     
  12. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Thanks for openly sharing your thoughts. I understand where you are coming from, esp from a historical point of view. But what I get when I read your post is that unless a pup comes from what is being labeled a so-called elite breeder the dog is subpar, and a detriment to the breed.
    Do you not think that someone like myself (should I choose to breed someday), or anyone else that is not in the elite category, could contribute positivity to the breed?
    When you say the betterment of the breed, you are speaking of the titled lines becoming even better purebreds. What about improving the so-called subpar lines - is that not an improvement in the breed?

    Lets get real....my dogs come from proven titled pedigrees in both Europe and N/A. If I were to get a clean bill of health on both of them showing that they were clear of genetic disorders, and then breed them because of what I see as the potential in them to have progeny that would advance the breed through their breeding, is that not moving forward with the purebred pedigree?
    Could not one of those pups potentially enter the show ring, or working sport, and win a title like those in the pedigree before them did? Do you think that just because they were not titled for a generation or two that this disqualifies them from contributing to the breed in a breeding?

    It seems to me that if only the elite breed dogs that the gene pool will digress to the point that the breed will suffer to the point of no return for health issues. I mean, some of the best titled dogs have serious health issues, but yet they are still bred and their progeny goes onward. Is this the route of the "Purebred"? Breed the titled proven elite dogs and leave the rest out, is what it sounds like you are promoting.
     
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  13. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Then I will leave - thank you for a wonderful time.
     
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  14. shadash

    shadash Notable member

    Please don't leave. I don't share your passion for C+D but I do respect your opinion.

    The time and effort you take to post are valuable. :)
     
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  15. kashi

    kashi Hot Topics Subscriber

    I certainly don't share your view on C&D (infact I'm probably the flip side of the coin) but you are actually quite helpful on other things so don't leave @Dobs4ever. I think we do need people as involved with the breed as you and its takes all sorts to make up the world. I appreciate how hard you work titling them etc and while yes you are opinionated etc many of us are too.

    On another note I looked into South African dobe bloodlines and learnt they are a mix of North American, German, Belgium, Canadian, Russian and Italian. No wonder when i look it Layla I honestly have no idea what she is (Euro or NA) she has a long face and neck but mid/deep mahogany colouring and her legs are getting quite thick now. She is driven (won't stop if you have a ball in your hand) but is mellow in the house. I really wish I knew what she was! Drives me nuts. Either way I rescued as I did not have the money to buy from a top breeder and did not feel comfortable buying from a hobbyist (as I am not based in South africa any more meeting the hobby breeders and the dogs would be impossible). Can you DNA test your dog for bloodlines?
     
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  16. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Don't leave, D4E.
     
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  17. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber



    Hmm.... what a shame.
     
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  18. FredC

    FredC Guest

    I don't see this thread ever getting back on topic.
     
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