Dismiss Notice
Hello Guest!
We are glad you found us, if you find anything useful here please consider registering to see more content and get involved with our great community members, it takes less than a minute!

Dobermann Review article interview with Avi Marshak on the standard and c/d

Discussion in 'Canine News/Informative Articles' started by Dobs4ever, May 29, 2012.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. FredC

    FredC Guest

    Sorry didn't know you considered yourself an elitist. These changes however are very typical of breeders who start to see success in their programs. I suppose congratulations are in order. It's too bad that elitist breeders don't want there Dobermans in the hands of pet owners. How long do you think having Dobermans in the hands of working homes alone can sustain the breed 10-20 years before they're extinct? seriously I'd like to know since you are up there in the elitist category and have openly admitted that people like me have no business owning Dobermans. It's no secret how I feel about the infamously stuck up and conceited people in this breed, I mean the elitists. If the shoe fits feel free to wear it but I always thought you to be a bit more sensible. Bet those other self proclaimed elitist breeders like Dede Bruno and Gail forest Are getting a kick out of this. Interesting that an elitist apparently has a broad of a definition as a BYB. It genuinely surprises me that you would even want that title.you no doubt have done a lot for the breed and deserve to be recognized for that and your acomplishments its all commendable but your contempt for pet people is showing more everyday.

     
    • Like Like x 1
    • Agree Agree x 1
  2. kashi

    kashi Hot Topics Subscriber

    @VonDoom your last post summed up a point I was tying to make earlier thank you. i.e. pet ownership
     
  3. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Just some food for thought....
    I was raised to believe that there was not a reason to ever buy a dog. Just too many dogs out there that needed a home. We were pet people that just wanted a companion to add to our lives.
    We did what I thought at the time was training. We taught our dogs to sit, lay down and not to jump on people, ya know, basic house manners that made them easy to live with.
    Then one day I brought home my first Doberman. He was a beautiful red boy named Chaos. He ended up in a home that only thought they could be a Doberman owner. I told the owner to just give me the dog because it was just not working out.... long story.
    I brought him home and learned quickly that there was something about a Doberman. I had to know more.
    When I lost him, I knew only another Doberman would do for me. Enter Drake. Oh boy, what a journey he and I have had in just 3 short years.
    Never in my life have I had one dog change my life so completely.
    We can divide ourselves up into little groups, pet people, show people, working people, elitists, snobs... whatever. The bottom line is we all need each other to have this amazing breed.
    To the breeders and elitist I say to you, you need pet people. Not every dog in every litter will be the perfect dobie. Be grateful there is a pet person to step up and give your pup a good home. Not to mention, not everyone can or wants to dedicate the time it takes to achieve this elusive greatness you speak of. I can honestly say I am grateful. Because you have put the effort into training, showing and really learning about this breed it allows me to have the dogs I have now.
    To the pet people I say love your dogs and to be fair to the dog, at least give the basic training that will keep your furry friend out of trouble. Pet ownership comes with certain responsibilities that we all must commit to before ever bringing a dog into our lives. The extremist or whatever we want to call them, will just have to accept that basic training and care are all we have to give right now and that's ok.
    I say all this because it is what I have learned from experience. I have shown my dog and put a couple of titles on him. We tried obedience and even IPO. I am not in a place that I can pursue that right now, but I can speak to the fact that it is game changer. It is a whole new level of bonding and mutual respect with your dog... there are just no words, you have to experience it to understand it. I suggest that you, at the very least, find an IPO trial in your area, go watch a team get a BH title. Not saying you have to do the same thing, just saying it is nothing short of spectacular to watch such a well oiled team work together.
    Now I think it is time to understand that there are different kinds of dog owners that need and want different things from our furry friends. As long as we as owners provide that basic needs of our dogs, there really is no reason for this name calling divide. Why does it always have to come down to "my way is better than yours"?
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 1
  4. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Well stated Paint - Von if you refer to "elite" breeders being the ones who train and show their dogs then yes I am all for it. However, you know I have great pet families but I choose them wisely as best I can. I want to make sure that I am there to help them understand the breed, get help if they have a problem and as with Paint if they want to experience more then I want to be there to help them. I personally, of all the great breeders I know, do not know one that does not treasure their pet homes. There are a few snobs but every group has their bad apples.

    Paint and I often discussed this very fact that unless you have experienced that special bond with a dog who you train and compete with it is impossible to understand the whole new world it opens up and it does take the bond to a whole new level.

    Von - I have enough families on this list who started out as pet people for you to know I do not have contempt for pet people. you are so correct that we need good pet people or we would have to stop breeding as there are not enough show homes out there. Pet people are potential future competitors or not. What I dislike about some pet people is those who have never done anything but just sit back and criticize those who are doing something. It is easy to criticize when you don't know what you are talking about. But first hand knowledge is a powerful thing.

    Paint - had no interest in showing when she got Drake. We have had many hours and hours of conversations - I hope she has never felt in the beginning I felt she was nothing because she had no interest in showing. NONE But she deserved 100% of my best effort to help her and educated her to the breeders side of the equation and the misconceptions that run rampant out there.

    I have never in my life ever said or thought you have no business owning Dobermans. WOW I hope you are just having a bad day. I have defended you anywhere and everywhere anyone ever said anything negative against you. We have a different philosophy on some things but it does not make us enemies and I have always respected your hard work, honesty and dedication to our breed. I do think sometimes you let things get to you and go off and I hope that is all this is. As far as that goes yes there are some NOTE I said SOME pet people who should not have dobermans and there are some breeders (even among those who show and train who should not have dobermans). All breeders are becoming elite as they are becoming extinct.

    Pet people who think it is their right to change the standard and that c/d is not important and would just as soon see us loose the right because they have no concept of where that will lead us - don't know enough to know what they don't know and yes they hurt our breed and its future.
    Most of them have of course, never worked with an "elite" breeder who actually shows and trains their dogs. Most of them have gotten dogs from less than reputable places who did not screen families and did not stand behind their dogs so they BLAME "elite" breeders because they would not sell them a dog because they were not willing to learn about the breed and support doing things right. Just like in one thread here where someone is wanting to breed their female because she is coming two so the children can have a puppy. OMG.

    I honestly don't know any breeders who do not appreciate their wonderful pet homes and from what I have seen the "elite" breeders care far more about making sure their puppies go to great homes.
     
    • Like Like x 4
  5. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Ok, honest question here... If a pet person has a good bitch (any breed) and the family, and maybe some friends, want a puppy out of her, because of what they love about her, why is that a bad thing?
    Who is to say this should not be done?
    Why is this person to be judged so badly?

    I can understand if the breeding is only for the purpose of making money - but if the dogs are going to good homes what is the problem?
     
  6. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber


    Perhaps it is best to refer the friend to your breeder. It is my experience that his/her dogs will be very similar. There is so much knowledge that goes into breeding that IMO it is a huge risk to just throw 2 dogs together in hopes of getting a good one for a friend. Example: what if the stud dog had bad hips and the pup you bred inherited those hips and spent a life suffering or having an expensive surgery that may or may not fix it. What if you end up with 12 puppies? Do you have 12 good homes? Do some research on why dogs end up in shelters. One is not enough homes for the litter.
     
    • Agree Agree x 4
    • Like Like x 2
  7. FredC

    FredC Guest

    Im kind of with you here.. But i agree with Suzan in this sense.. Health testing is vitally important to the success of a generally unhealthy breed.. I could write a book on why i don't think dog shows should have a damn thing to do with breeding (but i digress thats another thread).. But anyone even considering the possibility of breeding their pets should at least understand their dogs family health history.. To much work has been invested in eradicating Hip Dysplasia, vWD, etc to let some joe blow breed their Dog without at least knowing what your breeding into the puppies..
     
    • Like Like x 2
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Pure Genius! Pure Genius! x 1
  8. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    So, in your opinion only qualified proven breeders should be having puppies of any sort?

    If this is the case then these breeders should be licensed by the state and it should be against the law for anyone else to breed said dogs if they are not qualified to do so. Therefore ther needs to legislation and laws to control this breeding of dogs that end up in in shelters.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I'm with you Von 100%, so I guess my point is where do we draw the line in controlling the breeding of dogs?
    If we say FU don't tell me what to do with our dogs, how do we stop others from doing the same?

    Again, I think it comes back to education!
     
  10. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    You assume that I need to do more research, but this post was not about me...it was a generalized question.

    And for the record...there are as many reasons there are dogs in shelters as there there are owners of dogs. When doing research on this topic one will see a great divide on the reasons why this is happening. It could be compared to the question, why are there homeless people in America? The reasons are multifaceted.
     
  11. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber


    There is already tons of legislation on the books. The problem is how to enforce it. For one thing it would cost tons of money to hire people to inspect all the kennels. Not to mention, do we really want government involved with our dogs? Look at healthcare for that answer.
    No more laws are not the answer. You said it yourself, the answer lies in education.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
  12. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    So then the answer to my questions should be - in my opinion - we need to spend more time getting the message out of what constitutes a well bread dog, and stop condemning people and telling them what they should do and not do. We should invite them into our world of knowledge and be willing to be teachers of what constitutes good health and temperament. Etc, etc....

    I posed the question because I have seen so much condemnation on boards like this, and on Facebook, that it just turns my stomach inside out. Why in the world would I, or anyone else, want to subject myself to so much negativity as I have seen in the so-called breeders world. Teachers and mentors lead by example, not by exclusion, and unfortunately this is ramped. Maybe not on DCF so much, although to some degree it is here, but generally speaking if I were to say I want to become a Breeder I would be blasted by many people, and very few if any would offer to help me succeed.
     
    • Like Like x 3
    • Agree Agree x 1
  13. FredC

    FredC Guest

    Man thats a good question ive spend hundreds of hours pondering over the years.. I've been involved in dogs in one capacity or another my entire life.. Starting out with GSD's and Poodles with my step dad as a kid, i was docking tails at 8 years old (FYI it was a very traumatic experience at 8) to Hybrid wolves as a young adult until they became illegal to breed and own. So i finally dedicated my "Studies" to Dobermans.. I think the problem could be greatly and i mean GREATLY reduced if real qualified breeders Begin true authentic mentor programs.. Don't attack them train them.. Encourage them, invite them to assist.. Thats a big one.. Boy if you could get a person to assist raise a puppy proper for eight to ten weeks.. They will surly see how truly hard it is to do right.. that alone would discourage a good portion.. Anyways thats just my opinion.. Although i don't suspect anything will change anytime soon.. Problem with mentoring is that the breeder risks being labeled by their peers as a pariah and risk being cast out of their inner circle..
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2015
    • Agree Agree x 2
  14. FredC

    FredC Guest

    Wow!! i think we both just said the exact same thing..
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  15. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I fully agree! Apparently you and I are on the same page, and share similar experiences.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. FredC

    FredC Guest

    Some of them are just absolutly crazy.. I once was given a death threat on "another board" because bred my dog without a title err i take that back it was because i started a rescue directory here of course they knew i intended to become a breeder back then to so of course that was part of the motivation.... No one even so much as recieved a warning.. Scarier yet the death threat was "Thanked" by a dozen members
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 10, 2015
    • Agree Agree x 2
    • Like Like x 1
    • Informative Informative x 1
  17. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    See, that is my point! This is a big reason why we have BYB'S, and other "closet breeders". There is no other option for them. It's like a cartel that controls an area of goods...no one else is allowed to be a part of it.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  18. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I just recently had someone, with many years experience in true working Dobes, on my fb Doberman group basically tell me to shut up because I know nothing...all just because I asked a really good question that made him feel uncomfortable. I was asking an honest question, and wanted to know their thoughts on the matter. And man did I get it. He was right...I don't know as much as many people do, and may never know that much, as at my age I will most likely not have the years of experience; but I am very studious, and want to learn. That is the main reason I am here...to learn and ask questions, and to share in everyone's Doberman experience. This is fantastic. If only this would have existed when I was a young man...how cool that would have been.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  19. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I have noticed other places that the craziness of many dog owners is just as crazy the AR people they are against.

    Two extremes of the same stick.
     
    • Agree Agree x 3
    • Like Like x 1
  20. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    These go together.
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page