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Dobermann Review article interview with Avi Marshak on the standard and c/d

Discussion in 'Canine News/Informative Articles' started by Dobs4ever, May 29, 2012.

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  1. FredC

    FredC Guest

    I can get onboard with this personally, but those with much more experience than me tend to disagree.I cant or wont discount that entirely.. Im not a fan of people who tell me i shouldn't own a working breed unless i work them.. FU its my dog.. and those people can kiss my ASS!! these people are just as much the problem as the AR groups that want to destroy all bonds between man and dog.. those people should move to an oppressive country stage a coo become dictators and leave my dogs alone.. If your a breeder and dont want to sell me a Dog because i don't live up to their expectations as an owner im perfectly fine with that.. However mind your own business and don't go running your trap and tell other breeders to avoid me because im a reckless and irresponsible owner..

    So called BYBs exist because most elite breeders are to narrow minded to see the big picture..

     
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  2. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Two of the best quotes ever! :thumbsup:

    And I fully support your position!!! :guns:
     
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  3. Gretchen_Red

    Gretchen_Red Hot Topics Subscriber

    @VonDoom(sorry can't use the quotes when I'm at work):

    To me a BYB is someone who purchases a dog, has little to no knowledge of the breed, how to breed, and their dog's bloodlines to even know if it's a wise decision to even start the breeding process. I think most breeders SHOULD be show breeders, not only for the experience but also for more knowledge on the breed and other breeders... but I'm also ok if someone has champion line dogs and a lot of information on the breed and has been raising dobes all their life too. I'd actually consider buying from my breeder again because I hear she has wonderful tempered dogs that live to a ripe old age, and G. is a great example of that, she's also been breeding for over 35 years. But I've also seen Dobies for sale here that were $400 and if you would have seen these puppies it would have brought tears to your eyes, those people, IMHO those are the BYB's we should be trying to stop.
     
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  4. Gretchen_Red

    Gretchen_Red Hot Topics Subscriber

    I agree with your position on guns as well. I carry myself, actually more so now that I have G. People see puppies as money in the bank. Also, ppl don't control their dogs and I'm not going to have my dog scarred mentally or physically for life! It will never be my first plan of attack, to shoot a dog, but it will be the last.
     
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  5. FredC

    FredC Guest

    I understand that.. To me those people aren't breeders at all they are greedy selfish, ignorant misguided individuals.. But the term BYB just sticks in my craw. (if i had a craw) i guess because its thrown around so loosely.. And on a lighter note where else is one supposed to raise their puppies? In the street? ;)
     
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  6. Gretchen_Red

    Gretchen_Red Hot Topics Subscriber

    And I always encourage a good argument. I firmly believe, if you can keep it from being personal, a lot can be gained from 2 different points of view! Like I learned from reading your opinion that VonDoom is a jerk <--- just kidding.
     
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  7. FredC

    FredC Guest

    Thats the philosophy this forum was founded on. Sometimes easier said then done. But none the less. :) i like to think thats where this forum gets its edge.
     
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  8. FredC

    FredC Guest

    Im working on that, i take my medicine almost every day, and the Dr says he sees some improvements. :dc: :lmao:
     
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  9. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    It is true that "low grade" Dobe pups are out there for sale, and if you know anything about the Doberman it is easy to tell. It is the uneducated buyer that does not know what they are buying, that is buying them, and they alone are the ones supporting the poorly bread Doberman. Most of these people are infatuated with the "idea" of the Doberman, based on the image that the media has portrayed of them over the years.

    The "USDA Grade A" Dobes are way out of their league to buy, and they would never spend that kind of money on a dog anyway. Puppy contracts keep many people out of the loop, along with the price, but still there are owners that will go this route. So these want-to-be-Doberman-owners go find what they can afford, knowing not what they are buying. This is one of the main factors that supports the poorly bread Doberman. It is not the so-called BYB'S that are the problem - but the buyers.

    So to me, education is the key! Not more laws to control people and what they do. If the demand for poorly bread Dobermans was not there then the supply would dwindle. IMHO.
     
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  10. shadash

    shadash Notable member

    I prefer getting "used" Dobermans. (There's a lot that need to be a new place to live though no fault of their own.)

    So for me breeders don't really matter but the general direction of the breed is of interest.

    If I was to go all out for a dog I'd buy a Foxfire grade dog.
     
  11. Gretchen_Red

    Gretchen_Red Hot Topics Subscriber

    @VonDoom
    1) Stop mocking me with using quotes that won't allow me to use!

    2) when starting from ground zero any improvement is a big improvement! ;)

    3)some days I feel like I start from ground zero. I remember one day I was being such a jerk to Gretchen! I was wanting perfection on her OB that she just wasn't getting and I was getting frustrated. Then I realized I was being a jerk, then I felt bad about being a jerk and then started crying bc I was being a jerk (I know I'm a woman, it's what we do). G. just came over and gave me a hug, like "it's ok, I forgive you." Which of course made me cry even more. Maybe you could send some of that medicine my way ;)

    4)That actually is what I enjoy most about this site, that differing opinions don't get personal and that people realize there's more than 1 way to do things. I'm on 2 sites and I often think about leaving the other because of how personal and ugly I see things get and the fact that the Mods allow people to talk to others the way that they do. I don't care if you've been on the site since day 1, if you're a vet, if you're a trainer, if you're a 100 year dobie owner... you still must treat others with respect! I was just telling a friend from the other site, that there's no point in being mean to someone who's doing something you don't agree with just say, "here's why I disagree" and back it up with facts. They will learn nothing if they put their defenses up, and they might ignore you even if you're nice, but at least they'll hear you and respect you and stay on the site and learn a thing or 2, which is better than them leaving and staying ignorant. Just My opinion.
     
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  12. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I am going to be pretty honest about myself here: My first Doberman costed $300. I have never had much money. I'm doing better now that I have been blessed with a wife that has a good career. Back then, however, I knew I could not afford an expensive dog. Get ready to shudder with me here, people: I picked up a newspaper, looked in the classifieds, and chose either the least, or second to least expensive Doberman.

    What I thought back then was as long as it was an "AKC" dog, it was about equal in quality to all other AKC dogs. I don't know how I could have been so naive. I'm a pretty smart guy, but boy have I been stupid at times in my life.

    Now, I wasn't totally stupid – I think. I went to buy the pup. It was a nice house and property. A husband and wife. Wife was a vet tech. This couple was rich compared to me, and seemed intelligent and reasonable. The dam and sire were onsite and I liked what I saw – was actually quite impressed with the Sire. Confident, strong-looking. I remember how he just brushed right past me in the house, literally pushing me aside a bit. Didn't care to meet me. Had more important things on his mind. When they let the dogs outside, they charged out across the property and gave thunderous barks. I was impressed.

    The good Lord was definitely looking out for me in this whole thing. That Doberman, while he did die of Cardio at 8 1/2, was amazing. Didn't really meet the breed standard very closely, but was big, strong, capable very intelligent, protective, fun-loving, trustworthy. He and I accomplished some pretty great things.

    So while I agree with your assertions, Knobie, there are always exceptions I guess. I do wish I had somehow been more educated before going in for a puppy. I was sorely lacking information.

    To touch upon something VonDoom mentioned: I would consider the above a BRB, or if I feel more diplomatic, a Hobby Breeder. Now, I'm not sure what I'd call those who are a step, or a few steps down from there and don't keep clean conditions, don't take care of the dogs' health, are dishonest and so forth.
     
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  13. GennyB

    GennyB Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber



    Nope! Serious working people have no need for good conformation. Show people can't begin to understand a working dog. Don't see those two worlds coming together anytime soon.





    I agree with the BYB part... they don't care. Just not sure about the "show" breeder understanding temperament. IMO, most don't have a clue about temperament.





    :thumbsup:





    I have never understood the "this behavior is wrong, let's make it against the law" philosophy. I'm sure we are all criminals in way or the other by now, with a good percentage past the 3 strikes you're out point. :cool:
     
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  14. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I know you aren't talking to me here, of course, but I'll say: Personally, I don't believe that a puppy buyer must work their dog is it's a working breed. What I do feel is that people should not wish to change a working breed to be less-working, or to create another version of it.
     
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  15. shadash

    shadash Notable member

    Do you consider a therapy dog to be a working dog?
     
  16. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Interesting question. I consider a therapy dog to be a dog that is doing a job – a dog that is working. When you say "working dog" however, are you mixing that term up with "working breed?"

    I'm trying to understand the meaning of what you are asking me. I assume you are asserting that taking a working breed and using them as a therapy dog is legitimate. I agree that it is.

    My position is that I don't want people to seek a version of a working breed that has had some of it's working capabilities bred out of it.

    Now, compared to the earliest incarnations of the Dobermann, even the most serious personal protection or sport Doberman of today is quite tame as I understand things. This is how it should be, I think, as the earliest Dobes, according to what i've read were so sharp and aggressive that they could not be kept in a populated area. At least not a modern-day, litigious one.
     
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  17. shadash

    shadash Notable member

    I didn't mean anything by it, just a question. Personally I do think Therapy dogs are working dogs. I also believe that Dobermans make great family and Therapy dogs. If I was in a military hospital for xyz although I'd appreciate someone bringing their toy dog for me to play with. I'd be much happier with a big Doberman sitting on my lap.
     
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  18. kashi

    kashi Hot Topics Subscriber

    All very interesting. @VonDoom I love your passion stay off the meds ;) I think one important thing to remember is the average schmuck will give you a blank look when you say "working breed". The problem is not just a dobe problem (forget C & D forget laws etc) it is a people problem. Most people just want a pet (today's modern world doesn't allow for too many necessary jobs for dogs for the average person), this is the reality of the world we live in. Of course there are groups like the police, military, security, guide dogs etc but for 99% of the people out there their dog is going to be a pet first and foremost. We are a in a bubble on this forum as we all love dogs (esp dobes) and we all go out of our way to fulfil this breeds needs and are educated about dogs. Its a dangerous line to walk when deciding a breeds future like the dobermann, do you breed for protection, do you breed for confirmation, do your breed for temperament, do you breed for a good pet etc etc I guess it depends on how many unhappy Dobermann owners you want. I think its unfair to tell someone who is a great pet owner (i.e. good home, care, exercise etc) that they should look elsewhere for a dog and not go for a dobermann if they aren't going to work him/her. A doberamann has so many facets that make it a great dog thats what i love about this breed, some facets might just shine more in different environments and in different homes. I don't really know what else to say except I agree with VonDoom that Layla is my dog and FU for trying to tell me what I should or shouldn't do with her. If she's happy its none of your dam business. thank you for reading.
     
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  19. Dobie Wan Knobie

    Dobie Wan Knobie Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Actually Tad I think you proved my point. I did the same thing in 1979 when I bought my first Dobe, she cost me a whole $50.00. She was a great dog, very smart etc. but she was nowhere near what my dogs are today. I bought what I could afford, simple as that. The demand is there, thus the supply is generated. Had I been educated in the Doberman culture, and maybe had a mentor, I would have done things completely different. I might have even done things different with the two I have now had I known just a year ago what I know today - and this is just the tip of the iceberg. We all start somewhere! I have no regrets in any of my dogs over the years except one - an Akita - but that is a different story. Not all so-called BYB'S produce bad dogs, but the dog you do buy will most likely be reflected in the integrity of the breeder.

    Sometimes you get lucky though...Case in point: My last Dobe was a freebie. He was given to me by an employee I had working for me, and he had got him from one of his friends. He was a fawn puppy about 6 or 7 weeks old. I knew nothing about him - no papers, nothing - he came from a BYB I'm sure. He grew to 120 pounds of muscle and brains. He lived to be 9.75 years old before we had him PTS, as he was very sick and lost most of his weight and was suffering. But what a great dog he was. He was a champ in my book, and everyone loved him. But as good as a dog as he was I would not breed him, even though he was intact. I knew that he was not suitable for breeding even though people wanted me to. I could have sired litters of $100.00 dogs. But I "knew" enough not to. I had learned a few things since my first Dobe, so education is what kept me from being the dreaded BYB. So again, I think education is the key, not conforming to someone else's opinion.
     
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  20. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Can you help me with this comment. I do not see elite breeders as too narrow minded to see the big picture. We are involved in many aspects from many different levels. We support the breed club of America - we participate in local clubs and we show, train, breed and help new owners. What is the big picture we are missing???
     
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