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Dobermann Review article interview with Avi Marshak on the standard and c/d

Discussion in 'Canine News/Informative Articles' started by Dobs4ever, May 29, 2012.

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  1. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    This interview was conducted in 2002 and posted on Dobermann Review and even then Avi Marshak saw big problems with new regulations and the crop and dock ban. This is not just my crusade. This is for the Dobermans, Dobermanns everywhere. These regulations that change our breed are detrimental. I hope you will read especially the bolded red responses.

    Thank you Dobermann Review for such a wonderful Dobermann site and information.

    Dobs4ever - Dogs under fire


    Avi Marshak - 6th FCI International all breeds dog judge
    Interview taken in August 2002 by Jason Farrish [from USA Dobermann]

    The FCI Dobermann standard was changed relatively recently. Do you think this change was to improve the working capabilities of the dogs or a concession to the breeders?

    In my humble opinion I don`t believe that the changed of the Dobermann standard has anything to do with the working capabilities. I believe that the changes made in order to meet the "reality '" in the judging rings, these changes are only cosmetic.

    As you have judged many ZTPs over the years is there one issue that pops up the most for the Dobermann. Anything that Dobermanns who are lacking share in common?

    In my opinion the Dobermann in general lacks the strong bite ability, of course there are Dobermanns that have the strong bite.

    As a working dog what is the Dobermann's greatest strength?

    In my opinion as a working dog, the Dobermann`s greatest strength is his speed and his ability to maneuver very fast.

    Most of us have always looked towards Germany as the ideal. Germany was the capital of the Dobermann. Has there been a change in that?

    Yes I agree that Germany is the ideal, however since the prohibition against docking and cropping dogs in most of the countries in Europe and particularly in Germany confusion spread around and breeders stopped breeding and many other Dobermann fans are waiting to see how this prohibition will affect the breed. I know several breeders who stopped breeding, I was told that the new comers to the breed in Germany want Dobermann as a pet...they don`t want to listen about working with the Dobermann...Even the numbers of the entries to the dog shows dropped...we must wait and see.

    Since the end of the cold war we have seen many working dogs come out of eastern Europe. What are your thoughts on the dogs coming out of Czechoslovakia, Yugoslavia, Russia, Poland etc?

    Since the "fall of the iron curtain" in Europe we face the high quality of the Dobermanns in Eastern Europe especially in Russia and Yugoslavia. Being F.C.I International All Breeds Dog Judge I believe that soon Russia will be the "Doggy Empire "of Europe not only in Dobermanns but in all breeds. When discussing the Dobermann breed in Russia I must say that the Russian breeders are very smart, they know how to work together in-groups to use smartly each others bloodlines successfully. Russian breeders usually win everywhere in Europe. They also train their Dobermanns and they have the Schutshund trial and the German ZTP...Another big and nice surprise is the Dobermann breeders from Yugoslavia. They did to the Dobermann breed what Bill Gates did to Microsoft...They are the wizards, they have most of the beautiful Dobermanns I have ever seen physically and mentally and they win a lot. They use smartly line breeding with high percentages of inbreeding and the product is of very high quality.

    I have been hearing a bit of Schutzhund backlash lately. The criticism is that Schutzhund has become too much sport and the real world working abilities of the dogs is suffering. What are your thoughts?

    Yes I agree with the criticism that Schutzhund has become too much sport and as a direct result of it the real working abilities of the dogs is suffering. A new trend has evolved lately in Europe, regulations and different laws against holding and keeping working dogs. The dog fans are easy target for the politicians soon they will ban the protection section in the Schutzhund...

    Have you had much contact with American line dobermans? If so what are your general impressions?

    Sorry I have not had that much contact with American line Dobermann and I can not express my impression.

    We now have a growing community of people in this country who are importing European blood and working Schutzhund here. You judged a ZTP for the United Doberman Club recently, how do the "American European" Dobermanns compare against Europe?

    I still believe that the European Dobermanns are a little better than the American European Dobermann. I believe that the Handler/Owner plays a significant role in raising training dogs especially Dobermanns, I believe that the Dobermann belongs to the specialist and not to the amateur. First we have to train the owners how to train the Dobermann and if we succeed than maybe the Dobermann breed will be benefited.

    Pelangistamm Armin, I am a fan of this dog in that I admire his look and his accomplishments, also that he is here in the United States. You judged him V1A what kind of a dog is he?

    Pelangistamm Armin
    I like Aramin he got what he deserved the V1A and I think he did well in the FCI World Dog Show in Portugal. Of course every dog has some mistakes but I like this dog especially his relations with his owner and I saw him in his natural surrounding...(I saw him of course after the show and the ztp) and this explains everything. This dog can compete in any European ring and win...

    What do we need to do in order to bridge the gap in quality between the US and Europe?

    The question is what quality? The owner`s quality? So in this case we must "upgrade" the owner personal hard disc and to train them how to train the Dobermann we must teach them discipline, discipline you can get in Germany...If quality means blood lines, right import etc., first you must learn to pray to all gods and for luck, and for the honest breeders, well I believe that you understand me and if not you are already in deep trouble.

    Are there any breeders in the US that have really impressed you with their stock.
    I was impressed by Linda and Philip Calamia and Ray Carlisle.

    How has the anti cropping anti docking laws throughout most of Europe affected the popularity of the Dobermann as a pet and working dog?

    In the Scandinavian countries the numbers dropped to half, I don`t have correct numbers but it affected the entries to the dog shows in most of the European countries. Many serious breeders stopped breeding and they are sitting and waiting to see the outcome. However many new comers to the breed are buying the Dobermann as a pet and they refuse to hear about training.
    Italian Dobermanns seem to be very popular right now as stud dogs, to what do they owe this success?

    Italian Dobermanns are very popular in all respects breeding and working, they owe this success to one man who "works" very hard and uses PC to map the blood lines his name is Dr Pezzano.
    What is the greatest threat to the Dobermann today?

    The greatest threat to the Dobermann today are the various laws and regulations against keeping and training dogs, needless to say the prohibition against cropping and docking.

    Have you worked much with Jivago Van het Wantij? If so what is your opinion of him?

    Jivago van het Wantij
    Sorry my knowledge about Jivago v.h. Wantaij comes from various sources so I can not express my private opinion, I have not seen this dog in a dog show.

    Same question but with Gino Gomez del Citone?

    Gino Gomez del Citone
    The same answer.

    Where are the strongest Dobermanns coming from today?

    I believe that the strongest Dobermanns coming today from the following countries: Russia, Italy and Yugoslavia.

    Is there a large difference between a dog that will excel in Schutzhund and a dog that will excel in police work?

    I must confess that I have seen Dobermanns that competed successfully in both works but I am not that expert to tell the differences.

    Are the Dobermanns in Europe considered serious Schutzhund competitors at the championship level?


    Any words of advice to someone in the US thinking of breeding, titling, or showing Dobermanns?

    Well first you must look around carefully, you must keep records on the Sire and the Dame to see where they won their titles who were the judges that judged them how many Dobermanns competed. You have to keep record on their offspring's (if they have), you must see them in their natural surrounding, to follow their health records and if you have decided to buy a puppy you can pray a little maybe, maybe it will help...

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  2. FredC

    FredC Guest

    How is it that ive never read this interview after all these years? I know this thread is old but great find Suzan..

    Deja Vu Anyone?
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  3. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    Von this is exactly what I have been saying - once they gain a toe hold by destroying our breed type (c/d) making a soft dog to appeal to pet peopld then the temperament will follow as they will then ban the sport which is an excellent test to learn about your dogs temperament. It is far more important than just c/d - they want to destroy the working breeds first then all purebred dogs. Pet people have a hard time understanding this as they have little to no interest or understanding of what makes a purebred dog. Instead of us lowering our standards we should educate pet people as to why they even can find a purebred of any kind and why it is important that the dogs maintain breed type.

    I educate my families on the importance of what I do and why I do it. They may themselves never show but they should understand why they dog they have exceeds their expectations for the breed.
    For my families who do then get interested in showing that is the ultimate thrill to watch them grow, train, compete and truly experience more of what these dogs are about.
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2015
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  4. shadash

    shadash Notable member

    This is a very one sided view on Dobermans. All the interviewee seemed to value was personal protection. To me Dobermans are more than that. Also they freely admitted no understanding of American style dogs while at the same time saying that they had no bite. (Can't have it both ways)

    - American breeders have been bringing down aggressiveness since the 70s.
    - American breeders have always been more about show than function.

    I think because of the changes American breeders have placed on Dobermans that we have a more versatile dog. They can be protection trained and they can also make good family or therapy dogs. This is why when it comes to C+D I believe in choice.
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  5. Dobs4ever

    Dobs4ever Hot Topics Subscriber

    It is not one sided. It is a view from a person who has devoted his life to training, judging, supporting his country's breed club and he judged dogs here so he has a world perspective while pet people only see it from their very limited knowledge, experience and one sided view from their couch.

    You might be interested to learn that both American and Euros brought down aggressiveness from the original dogs of Herr Dobermann because some were not manageable even by their own handlers. They worked to further develop a dog who retained his fearlessness and protection while becoming more trainable and willing to work with his human counter part. Had breeders everywhere not done that the dog would most like have gone extinct.

    The FCI standard calls for a dog with medium aggressiveness- friendly - good with children .......you can pull up the FCI standard and read it as it would give you a better idea from a more solid base of information.

    Sorry it makes no sense to equate the versatility with c/d. The breed from the beginning wasalways versatile - People just had a more narrow purpose back when the breed was first being developed and the breed was always c/d - so that is the choice - if you want a doberman it should be c/d otherwise you are free to choose any breed that fits your idea. Purebred dogs and fanciers put great pride in maintaining the look that set the world on fire.
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  6. FredC

    FredC Guest

    How can a interview be one sided when it's based on personal perspective? It was an interview not an expose.. Frankly i thought it was very good, spot on and came with predictions that all came true or or coming true as we speak..
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  7. shadash

    shadash Notable member

    The backhanded insults get old. You have no idea what I know about Dobermans. Just an FYI I got my first dog in the early 90's.
  8. FredC

    FredC Guest

    lol its outdated.. I havent seen the "New Standard" yet. I know it only changes the ears and tails but id like to read how its gonna be worded..
  9. shadash

    shadash Notable member

    I have no problem with the one sidedness. I do take issue with claiming to not have an opinion on American dog but also saying that they can't bite.
  10. FredC

    FredC Guest

    Youve never owned an Euro have you? err, let me rephrase that.. Have you ever owned a European Dobermann? I have both.. My (only) American was neutered b4 1 year, but i can tell you hes a powder puff compared to Any and All Euros i've ever been in contact with.. I can guarantee the guy has more experience in his little finger with Euros and American dobermans then you or I will ever have.. Its one thing to have an opinion its another to dismiss decades of experience.. He seemed very straight forward and refused answers questions he didn't have answers to or just didn't know.. I found it refreshingly honest.. Keep in mind the interview was conducted back in 2002 and from a guy who lives in countries that make working breeding dogs mandatory..
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2015
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  11. shadash

    shadash Notable member

    I haven't had a Euro dog. My experiences have all been with American dogs. I have been around euro dogs going all the way back to club monthly meet ups before the internet.
  12. FredC

    FredC Guest

    Fair Enough.. Im not gonna argue over what country has the better guard dog.. the results have been in for a few decades.
  13. FredC

    FredC Guest

    You dont strike me as the Club type.. lol that revelation surprised me.
  14. shadash

    shadash Notable member

    Before the internet going to club events was the only way to be around other Doberman people. You're right though ;-) I wasn't a club type person then and I'm not a club person now.
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  15. shadash

    shadash Notable member

    Something that's interesting...

    Back when I was going to club events breeders bringing down the aggression and changes to schutzhund were the topic de jour. C+D wasn't even a consideration. People fought just as hard as dobes4ever for C+D over "taming" the breed.

    The end result was that the people for protection style dogs just started getting Euro versions and the "show" breeders kept doing what they do.

    Although I don't attend meetings now I bet that both protection and show people just get along. At least more than they used to.

    As long as C+D remains legal this it what I expect will happen with Doberman people. Eventually everyone will just get along. It just takes a while for people to all get on the same page.
  16. Gretchen_Red

    Gretchen_Red Hot Topics Subscriber

    A very good article @Dobs4ever. Can I not appear ignorant in saying I had to use google about 6x-ish? I feel that if more laws would be put in place to stop BYB's then there would be less pressure to "change" the dobes temperament. BYB's don't care who their dogs go to and put no effort into making sure the new owners understand the dog's temperament and what to expect from their dogs, like quality show breeders do.
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  17. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    Shadash, I'm glad you wrote what you did in your last paragraph. It touches on one of the most important aspects of the Doberman and its current state.

    I disagree that the typical American Doberman can be protection trained.

    That's a problem. If all someone wants is a beautiful, intelligent, versatile, biddable dog, I'm sure they can find that in another breed. It's hard for me to understand why they must have a Doberman.

    The changes that American breeders have brought to the breed have stripped it of much of its protection capability. This was intended to be a protection breed. Sure, it's great that the Doberman can be versatile, but this movement away from focusing on and keeping intact the Doberman's proud heritage as personal protector has seen it lose those capabilities.

    Am I saying I want a dangerous dog? Of course not. Good breeding should produce stable temperament in a dog that retains its intended protection-oriented capabilities.
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  18. shadash

    shadash Notable member

    Sounds like you're for a dog that can protect and backup that protection with genetics. I'm ok with that. However I do believe that American dobermans can be protection trained. They might not be a dirty harry .44 magnum but even a .22 if aimed correctly can be deadly. Most protection situations are solved by a dog defensively barking and showing intent to go offensive.
  19. Oh Little Oji

    Oh Little Oji Formerly Tad Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $


    For me, though, "protection trained" means all the way. It means the dog has proven it can go all the way and face a menacing threat that fights back hard. Hopefully it shows it can physically neutralize that threat. Of course I understand no dog can do everything, and could be overcome by an especially large and vicious human being, or one effectively armed.

    Now, let me clarify that I was generalizing when I referred to American Dobermans.

    Just a quick tidbit from my personal experience:

    I had a Doberman from a breeder with no particular proven track record. This was an absolutely great Doberman, by the grace of God. He, however, did not have the capability to full-mouth bite. Just wasn't in him. He was protective though and could put on a good show. He wan't a bluffer. He had pretty good courage. He would just nip you probably, and I believe he would back down if he encountered a someone who fought back.

    My next Dobe came from proven Schutzhund/working lines. He exhibited a full-mouth bite naturally – no training or encouragement. He also was evaluated favorably – quite favorably by a Schutzhund club. I am almost certain he could have gone far in the sport if I had more money and more desire to drive a motor vehicle as much as it takes to participate in that sport. I also am confident he could have done great with actual protection training.
  20. FredC

    FredC Guest

    ~begin rant~ No offence (and certainly not personal) but more laws are not the answer.. More laws more anarchy.. Education is key.. Never underestimate mankinds hatred of all thing oppressive. Why is mankind so eager to be governed by absolutes? Good intentions rarely end with good results especially when Government gets their greedy hands in the mix. Laws are rarely meant to protect ass much as they are meant to generate revenue. i understand the need for laws and the that we are a nation of laws.. but i give human kind more credit and have no intentions of punishing the majority of people to prevent a minority from doing bad things.. For example i think its absurd that since 9/11 i was forced to give up what i valued the most for the sake of protection.. I hold my freedom in much higher regards as i value my government's ability to protect me all in the name of democracy.. I reject that notion 1.000.000% Dont take my guns and i can protect myself.. When the patriot act was enacted the jihadists won..

    BYB BYB BYB BYB Seriously what is that? i hear it all the time but every single person has a different idea of what a BYB is.. This is a word created by the AR agenda to destroy dog ownership altogether.. And people are buying it hook line and sinker.. and guess what its working.. The AR agenda is a locomotive and its going to run right through us and cares nothing about you or your rights.. more laws only empower these groups and further their agenda.. I hate that word as equally as i hate liars, cheats and thieves. But i will not sacrifice any of my freedoms for a generic cause that i think is only perpetuated by those that have a far worse agenda then someone who breeds a dog.
    ~end rant ~
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 9, 2015
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