Doberman traits changing over the years

I applaud you for starting this conversation and I respect that you have spoken so openly.

I got my first Doberman in 1996, so I don't know if I really qualify for your information sampling pool. Still, this is a vital topic to me and I'd like to speak on it a bit.

The idea of changes in the breed that have possibly occurred over the years and decades is something I heard here on DCF. If I recall, @Tropicalbri's , and you, @Ravenbird , and possibly someone else, mentioned the topic.

As some of you know, I have decided to take a break from Dobermans for now, and have procured a very different breed of a guarding nature. Not the sole aspect, but a major one is my questioning the breed modern day – both in terms of temperament and of health.

Note: The next paragraph has turned into mostly a boasting session on my first Dobe.

So yeah, my first Dobe was honestly whet I call my once in a lifetime dog. Like someone who commented above, I bought him from the classifieds. So not the way to do it, but I was not educated and informed on dogs, only having lived with our family dogs growing up. Well, someone was looking out for me because that Dobe was awesome. He was a Red, 28 1/2" tall and 95 lbs. rock solid. His build was rather stocky and his head blocky. He was so trainable. I wish I could find these pieces of paper, but I think he knew over 200 words and could perform over 100 commands. I put a CDX on him, and could've gone on to the UD level, but he detested the obedience ring and was so stressed out by it that it stressed me out greatly and was not worth continuing. Then, we got into some neat trick training. The following are not what I include in the category "tricks" but he would pick up anything I'd tell him to and he'd place it in my hands. He would carry bags of groceries into my apartment up steep stairs. He would carry a cooler of drinks, or a toolbox, or a gallon of milk home from the store. He saved my life two separate times, and got me into my locked truck two different times. I'd take him to work and leave him on the seat of the truck and he'd never touch this dog biscuit that was sitting right in front of him. I could go on. He did whine a fair amount, and he did the obsessive licking; but as with all three of my Dobes, I did not allow blanket sucking to even become a thing. I didn't socialize him when he was young, and his default was to bite (nip) if I didn't take charge of meetings with strangers. He has a problem with children and nipped three different ones. Anyway, I don't expect many of you to read this long paragraph. He was my one constant through some tough times and on into better times. He accompanied me on at least to long trips half way across the country, riding in the tight lightweight racing bucket seat of my muscle car, or on the hot floorboard on a blanket, or in my 76 Blazer with the top off driving from MN to AZ to pick up my motorcycle. I felt pretty well protected as we slept in the open back of that truck at rest stops. Oh, that motorcycle? He would go on to ride on the back of it in a crate that I attached back there..

So that first Dobe, from a nothing special hobby breeder heritage was pretty amazing, but did have a decent amount of whining and characteristic Doberlicking, and perhaps due to my not socializing him, would get aggressive with strangers unless I gave the okay command.

My next two Dobes were from working breeders.

One of them had a major problem with unpredictably going after guests in the home, and oh yeah, my wife. You may assume it was bad training, but I don't think so. I finally contacted the breeder and that's when I first found out his littermate (only two in the litter) had to be put down a few years prior for "violent seizures" or "rages". He was a great Dobe, but quite whiny and high strung. Very very trainable – a bit robot-like in that regard. Turns out I hadn't done my research well enough and it turns out his sire (who at the time of the breeding, was an 11 time Schutzhund III) was pretty inbred. This, according to my subsequent breeder. Oh, he would freak out about being in a confined space. We learned this on a camping trip when he began to get rigid inside the tent with us. I'm so glad nobody got bitten. I had to go sleep in the car with him, and leave my wife to sleep alone. The vet had to examine him outdoors, not in an exam room.

Then, you've got Oji, also from working lines. Similar to the previous one, but worse in every regard besides the unpredictable aggression. Separation anxiety, and extreme explosive barking. I could not simply leash him to a tree or piece of playground equipment and walk a few feet away so as to push my daughter on a swing or something without him bursting into wild, ferocious barking. It was long hard training to quell his reactivity to dogs that could occur from 1/2 a block away. Very whiny and prone to pacing. He was very bad about nail trimming. The American Bulldog / Pit Bull female cross we fostered exhibited way more stoicism and toughness with the nail trimming. Oji's g.i. system was always a problem – battled loose stools his whole life. Also lifelong was the semi-frequent peeing on this front legs and paws, perhaps due to the incorrect angulation of the pelvis. He peed and pooped his crate early in life for months and months. After about the age of 3 or so, he developed thunder storm anxiety and eventually started peeing in the house if there was lightning and he could not reach us, or if we were sleeping. Oji was narrowly built throughout, and had a head that was on the smaller end of the spectrum, hence his bodyweight of 70 lbs. at a full 28" height.

A note on the head size: I don't want to buy into the old legend that Dobes eventually go crazy because their brains don't stop growing; but just a rather obscure theory – could his diminutive head size have not provided enough room for his brain? May sound crazy, I know.

Both those working-line Dobes, however, knew how to full-mouth bite as a birthright – Dax better than Oji, who needed a bit of coaxing to learn to get good grips. My first Doberman, I believe typical of the breed as a whole, had had full-mouth biting bred out of him. I do believe, however, that those working Dobes had what it took to do battle with a combative human attacker, and would not back down. I did not have this belief of my first Dobe.

So these working Dobes are bred pretty much with one goal: Maximum performance on the field. That, and if it's a caring breeder, health. I believe this causes other aspects of the dog to suffer – both conformationally and in terms of temperament. @Ravenbird , you have an exception in my view in that Asha is put together very nicely and is gorgeous.

It comes down to that elusive concept of "The Total Doberman". Show me a breeder who achieves that.
 
As to the idea that there may be fewer Dobes in protection oriented dog sports and protection work in the last 20 - 30 years: I don't know that that's true.

The Dobe fell out of favor for protection work or police work long ago. There have been, however, a number of working Dobe breeders who have strived to develop a Doberman that is closer to its working heritage. While GSDs and now Mals dominate the IPO fields, and Dobes still are maligned or dismissed, there have been a fair number of Dobe breeders in the last, I don't know, couple decades or more who have bred and worked their Dobes to working titles.

Basically, that herding breed dominance still exists, but I think the working Dobe has made major strides toward respect. But as mentioned above, they are lacking in other aspects of what it takes to be a good all around dog. If you have the right lifestyle, or your Dobe is kept primarily as a working dog to be campaigned and titled, they can work out just fine for you. But they are not very good at being pets.
 
Thanks for more input @Oh Little Oji. Always good to see personal stories and I do agree that working line breeders need to place their puppies carefully. Grateful that Asha was placed with me despite not having titled dogs before, my breeder knew I was ambitious enough. I was still pretty overwhelmed that first year by the drive of the dog and the amount of work it took to shape her into what she is today.
 
She doesn't care if I leave and I get all my privacy in the bathroom 🤣 Only issue she has is when I go to bed late but even then it's not always.
I have spent so much of my time on DCF complaining about Kaiser, but my moment to brag has finally arrived! Wow, let me take a deep breath for this one :rofl: Kaiser doesn't come to the bathroom with either of us! One time, I even invited him in because I wanted to see what the fuss was all about, but he didn't want to come in! He is happy to lay outside the door and wait for me. Second brag: Kaiser doesn't care when anyone goes to bed 😆 BUT, I think that may be because we don't share our beds with him.
But they are not very good at being pets.
Back to complaining LOL, I agree that a Doberman is hard to keep as a pet. They love being busy and active especially if it's fun stuff outside.
 
Appreciate your history Tad, thank you for sharing about your dobes.
Here is something I found on rage syndrome years ago. My vet way back then said it was originially called Spaniel Rage due to that breed showing a tendancy for it....but he had seen it across the breeds. Just thought I would share.

RAGE SYNDROME IN DOGS SUDDEN ONSET IDIOPATHIC AGRESSION Symptoms of SOIA involve the dog acting extremely aggressively seemingly out of nowhere. In documented cases, the dog acts completely normal leading up to and directly after the aggressive attack. However, during the attack, the dog may seem disoriented and may not respond to attempts to stop the attack. In most cases,what triggers this behavior outburst cannot be identified, but outbursts are uninhibited and severe.
In many cases, owners report that the dog’s eyes glaze over and their pupils dilate or that the dog becomesstiff directly before an attack. SOIA usually begins presenting in dogs between 7 months and 3 years of age.SOIA is not a contracted disease like rabies, rather a genetic abnormality that is still in the early stages ofbeing studied.

The bad news about SOIA is that when a dog actually has it, the condition is rarely treatable. If your trainer orbehavior professional suggests that your dog may have SOIA, then a trip to a veterinary behaviorist is in order.Some dogs will respond to different drug therapies, and there have been minor successes in treatingindividuals with phenobarbital (common for epilepsy or seizure disorders). But because the nature of thisdisorder indicates that the cause or triggers of this rare type of aggressive outburst are generally notidentifiable, medical and behavioral intervention is extremely difficult and frequently unsuccessful.

Since true SOIA is truly violent and totally unpredictable; in many cases of dogs with diagnosed SOIA, the

recommended solution is humane euthanasia.
Sudden Onset Idiopathic Aggression in dogs appears very similar to schizophrenia in humans. It usuallymanifests between six months to 2 years old and is more common in males than females. Episodes tend tocome in groups of three which progressively worsen. Again, I want you to understand there is no knowncausation and this syndrome is rare. That being said, the following are what I call the red flags whendetermining if aggressive behavior is correctable.

The dog attacks without provocation. One minute he is content to be petted, or sleeping or relaxing, the nexthe attacks.

Dog attacks without warning. Most dogs growl, snarl, tense and give us any number of indications they areangry and want you to back off. A dog with SOIA gives no warning at all. (see below)

Dog's eyes may glaze and body become stiff. Because it is believed an SOIA episode is some type ofseizure, a dog’s pupils may dilate completely making the eyes look like black voids. Sometimes the bodybecomes rigid immediately before he attacks. This posture is the only warning an owner may get and thedangerous attack is almost immediate.

There is no remorse or recollection. I think this flag is the most unique. We all know the pitiful posture ourdogs take when they are guilty or remorseful and how they make us feel like it’s our fault they’re in trouble. Atthe end of a Rage episode, a dog shows no sign of remorse. In fact, it becomes obvious the dog has no cluewhy everyone is mad and upset. A dog coming out of a rage episode looks much like a dog coming out of aseizure. He is disoriented, tired, unsure what is going on around him and he is needy – which is tough when theperson who just got bit needs stitches.
 
At the suggestion from @Cferg I'm starting this topic about changes in Doberman traits that didn't use to be common,

I'd like others input too. Especially if you've had Dobermans in your life 20, 30, or 40 years ago. What are we seeing now that didn't use to be?

Very briefly, my first Doberman I got in the 1980's, adapted as a young adult, she came into my house with cats and was just a perfect dog. No barking, no aggression, she didn't tear anything up, she was quiet, she was active, she wasn't afraid at the vet, she rode in the truck or car and slept on the floor next to my bed, didn't ever want on the furniture - just a perfect model of a dog. My next dog I got as a puppy in 1992, her sire worked IGP, dam was pet bred. She had spark and drive, but totally social, didn't bark at strangers, but she was raised in an extremely social environment with 2 - 20 people coming and going daily, zero isolation and exposed to the public daily. Crated until house broken, then left alone in the house with two cats with no problems by the time she was 6 or 7 months old. Never chewed up anything. No dog aggression whatsoever, including living with another female. Neither dog ever whined, not once. neither dog was anxious when I was gone, both were totally social to everyone they met without being overly friendly. They played actively but not rough, they were athletic - my 2nd one went with me when I'd ride horseback in the mountains, one day doing a 20 mile ride. She stayed completely sound and lived to be 11. Reading this forum and others like it we see over and over the complaints of whining and vocalizing, of destruction of furniture and crate beds. I didn't own a dog between Dietrich and Asha - almost 20 years. I wanted a working line dog, I assumed it would be like Dietrich with just a little more fire and less trust of strangers. LOL. Nope. I will agree, the working lines are a lot more to handle than show & pet lines, but still some these traits seem to be across the board for our breed: Whining. Vocalizing. Separation anxiety. Explosive barking.

But my own dogs aside: The war dogs of the 40's? The did not do explosive barking at noises or strangers or a squirrel, they didn't have anxiety whining, they didn't have toys or blankies to suckle, they weren't put in crates they were in the trenches and had to be perfectly silent. They were mostly messenger dogs, alert dogs, not so much attack dogs in WW2. So what changed?

In the '80's there was a great trainer where I lived - trained junk yard dogs that he would drop off at businesses in the evening and pick them up in the morning. Those dogs never barked, they'd wait in silence until someone came over a fence then it was game time. If the thief laid still the dog would guard, if he moved the dog would bite. No one there to tell them anything. I don't think he was ethical or cared much, but he could train a dog. His personal dogs were Dobermans, most of the junk yard dogs were GSD or mixed breeds. He could train anything. The Dobermans were fierce, but totally social. He's the one that I first found out about Schutzhund and Dobermans. Something about todays Dobes, working or not, is that they are way too reactive for no good reason. His dogs were quiet and steady.

Asha can stay in the house for several hours alone with zero disturbance. She doesn't bother anything or even eat the cat food. She stole shoes or gloves as a puppy but never destroyed them. I collect bones & skulls & antlers of wildlife she doesn't bother them and there are probably a hundred scattered around. I don't know how I got so lucky. She does get anxious, she does scream-whine when I do finally show up if I've been gone a while. She might scream/whine/howl when I'm gone, but I don't have any way of knowing. She's the most vocal dog I've ever known, like those Huskies you see funny videos making talking noises. But explosive barking at normal people? I'm sure I'll never be free of managing it. The only way I can think to describe it is "too much". I don't think any of these traits happened overnight, but here we are.

I'd love to hear from more of you guys who remember Dobermans from 25+ years ago.
Wow….
What a great topic and write up.
Just starting it and interested of yalls views.
 
My Doberman experience actually goes back further than 1996, as I think about it. My girlfriend and her mother had a male Dobe. I met that Dobe in 1987 when I was 17 years old and that long tall blonde girlfriend, whose mother and her lived together with do dad in sight was 19 years of age.

That Dobe was their protector, as you might imagine. The girl used to have him ride in the front seat of their 76 Buick 2-door with her. It was quite a sight.

I don't remember any significant or excessive whining from that Dobe.

He did come up to you and scoop up your hand with his head and get petting. It struck me how the mother used to verbally stop him from coming up and seeking petting and attention from us as we were sitting watching TV and such. It must've been a thing with her to preempt that needy behavior.

That Dobe did tend toward the flatulent for sure; however, I don't know how good his diet was. I'm sure it was probably decent. The two ladies didn't have a lot of money.

The first time I was introduced to the Doberman's stellar watchdog capabilities was when my girlfriend one night said: Check this out, then cracked open the front door and quietly said "Watch!" The Dobe burst into booming, deep barks that were just really something to observe. I'm sure I was much more impressed back then as an uninitiated young man, but it wowed me and was just one of the things that shaped my opinion that the Doberman was the ultimate dog and that one day I'd have one.

They had this good friend – a big ol' muscle man of a biker who had two Dobermans. I know a couple times there was talk of breeding to his Dobes. But yeah, that man would come in to the gas station at which I worked and it was quite an experience. The man, when he wasn't riding his Harley, drove a black Jeep Honcho pickup truck with those trademark stripes (orange and yellow were they?), always with two Dobermans in bed of the truck. They would bark ferociously at any and all who came anywhere close to the truck. Best believe I didn't dare go out and tell him to make his dogs stop harassing nearby customers! I remember always having a healthy fear of those Dobes, and I never once came close! I also always felt like they could, at any moment, jump out of the truck and attack someone. They never attempted to jump out as the big mustached man gassed up his truck or came in to pay.
 
Lol! That tall blonde with the Dobe story reminded me that I never knew anyone with Dobes, but loved Magnum PI back in tbe day. Zeus and Apollo, the Dobermans on the show, always chased Tom Selleck. Guess I identified with them! 🤣 Sasha has never voluntarily set foot in our bathroom. Guess she fears baths more than she desires to follow me.
 
Will add to the book with my two.

Ragnar was a North American show line Doberman. His lineage of 4generations was all champions and grand champions. Got him from a very experienced breeder in Texas. Still to this day, I believe Ragnar’s genetics were reversed…to me he had a more European look (box more than slim lines) and personality than your standard NA showline Doberman. He was a beast, high drive, that just wanted to go all the time- not skittish or fearful. Dog reactive. Very very obedient and loyal esp in public. He would follow to the shower, toilet, truck, yard…name it, always on my right side- and the nose butt of “here I am” was many times a day. Initially was a whiner but trained it out of him. He had to have OCD PICA because he ate everything- Dobergoat is truly an under statement. I guess I had gotten use to it but since his passing, I now realize the large amount of time and energy I spent watching, preventing and correcting on his insatiable eating. Bonded to me and only me- could care less about anybody else, like they didn’t exist. Very protective.

Freyja is a North/South American Doberman with just a great temperament, personality, attitude, work rate, trainability, etc…. I’ve said it before, the perfect Doberman for the family and home. Whining was trained out, she does not follow everywhere, does not nose butt, easily trained and desires to please. Never did understand the terms “easily trained- desires to please” until I worked with Freyja. Such a relief and fantastic trait to work with. Prob medium drive- has a clear on/off switch. She is content to watch from afar and not be up your butt everytime you move…Ragnar moved with you, wherever you went. But this would become opposite if there was a questionable/danger situation. Ragnar would go out to search/address the situation whereas Freyja will stay within a 4’ proximity. Bonded with wife and daughters but now since Ragnar is gone our bond is stronger and will choose me over them. Friendly to most and acknowledges all. Very protective.
 
Ragnar was a North American show line Doberman. His lineage of 4generations was all champions and grand champions. Got him from a very experienced breeder in Texas. Still to this day, I believe Ragnar’s genetics were reversed…to me he had a more European look (box more than slim lines) and personality than your standard NA showline Doberman.
Wow I thought for sure he was mostly Euro.
 
Really enjoying reading this topic. I do not know the backgrounds on all the Dobermans I have owned, none were registered and all were adopted.
I am on my 4th one. I do know that my previous 3 were nothing like the one I have now.
First Doberman was a red, 1989. He was 6 months old when I got him. He had been hit by a car- with a broken leg. I worked for a vet at the time that took care of him. He was never claimed, I took him home. No Doberman experience at all. He was the smartest and best dog I ever owned. Mellow, loving, lived with cats, dogs, goats, horses, and children. Loyal and loving. He lived to be 15.
Doberman #2. I took in a black and rust female. (spayed) 3 year old. I got her in 1991. She was an owner surrender- again through the vet I worked for. She was also very sweet and easy to get along with. My husband at the time bonded with her- she followed him everywhere. When we got divorced she went with him.
Doberman #3 Black and rust nuetered male. 1yrs old. A stray at the local animal shelter. 1994. So at this point we had 3 Dobermans, and several Yorkshire terriers. All got along. He was also well behaved. Listened, never reactive and did well with all the animals and the kids. Again, pretty mellow. When we got divorced in 2001, I took Lance (the red doby) and Arnie the black male and moved out of state. I eventually had to ask my ex to take Arnie. We moved in town and had a lot of neighborhood kids in and out of the house- he did not like all the activity and started to nip at the kids.
Doberman #4, what a change this was. I adopted Nick when he was 7 months old. Nick is a blue. I thought he would be like what I was used to with my previous 3. NOT a chance. He has been a challenge. He loves everyone. Has an awful Doberman whine, (especially when crated). Beyond active (he would go 12 hours without a nap) He has moments of being sweet- but not many. Highly reactive to squirrels and rabbits- (barking frenzied). Extremely difficult to train (still will not recall after 1 1/2 years of training) I finally relented as I could not mange him on my own and found a dog trainer. A year and a half later I live in Nick's world- he doesn't live in mine. We found some common ground- Dock Diving. He has come a long way- but definitely not what I was expecting when I adopted him. At 2 he has mellowed out a lot, but still has tons of extra energy. I did an Embark DNA test. He came back full blooded with relatives all over the midwest and East coast. Mostly in New York, PA, Ohio, Indiana.
I pondered after following many Doberman rescues if Blues tend to be more high strung. I see tons of blues being surrendered at a higher rate than other colors with lots of complaints about being too much dog and needing a owner with Doberman experience. Not sure if the entire breed is seeing this or just certain bloodlines. I have to admit that I was no way prepared for him. So is it genetics? The was they have been bred for the past 30 years? I have no clue, but I can say there is a difference from Doberman 1 to Doberman 4
 
I pondered after following many Doberman rescues if Blues tend to be more high strung. I see tons of blues being surrendered at a higher rate than other colors with lots of complaints about being too much dog
The only thing I can think of is of BYB's breeding for color rather than temperament or sports titles. Breeding for color tends to ignore all other aspects of the dogs and over just a few generations you get basket cases and/or health issues because temperament and health tests are not important to breeders producing color.

Well bred blues & fawns do tend to have skin issues, but if they are shown or titled and ethically bred should not be overly troublesome.

So interesting, I worked for a vet for a few years in the early '80's and that's where my first Doberman came from: around 1983 or so, someone found a Doberman along side the road and brought her in. There wasn't a "shelter" in those days, so the vet clinic put notices out in newspaper and radio, but no one claimed her. They were going to put her down, but I took her instead. My very first dog. Intact, we spayed her, bled profusely during that procedure, then she took hours and hours to wake up, finally recovered then almost died from heart worm treatment and ultimately died about a year or so later from internal bleeding - I'll skip details, but knowing now it was obviously von Willebrands. But kindest hearted dog with zero temperament issue, not shy, not aggressive, walked into my house with cats and just made herself at home... just a perfect all around dog.

I'm so glad you posted about your previous dogs and your experiences! Thanks for your input!
 
The only thing I can think of is of BYB's breeding for color rather than temperament or sports titles. Breeding for color tends to ignore all other aspects of the dogs and over just a few generations you get basket cases and/or health issues because temperament and health tests are not important to breeders producing color.

Well bred blues & fawns do tend to have skin issues, but if they are shown or titled and ethically bred should not be overly troublesome.

So interesting, I worked for a vet for a few years in the early '80's and that's where my first Doberman came from: around 1983 or so, someone found a Doberman along side the road and brought her in. There wasn't a "shelter" in those days, so the vet clinic put notices out in newspaper and radio, but no one claimed her. They were going to put her down, but I took her instead. My very first dog. Intact, we spayed her, bled profusely during that procedure, then she took hours and hours to wake up, finally recovered then almost died from heart worm treatment and ultimately died about a year or so later from internal bleeding - I'll skip details, but knowing now it was obviously von Willebrands. But kindest hearted dog with zero temperament issue, not shy, not aggressive, walked into my house with cats and just made herself at home... just a perfect all around dog.

I'm so glad you posted about your previous dogs and your experiences! Thanks for your input!
I totally agree that breeding for color can change the dogs temperaments. I was hoping to dodge the bullet of the DCA, but a few months ago Nick began looking a little moth eaten. Consulting the vet and numerous articles online I changed his diet and added supplements. right now he does not appear to be getting worse, I do not know if his coat will get better. Fingers crossed he will keep what hair he has. I was ignorant to the fact that color could have personality ramifications- my thinking was a Doberman was a Doberman. Lesson learned. But I love Nick and his quirky personality. I am happy I stuck it out - although there were many days I was totally regretting my decision to adopt him.
 
I just stumbled across this blog post about Jake, born 1985. This dog reminds me SO much of my Dietrich, born in 1992. We didn't have stories like this, but the ease of "doing it all" without trying or working hard at training. And she looked like this dog with a feminine twist. This is how I remember all the Dobermans in the '80's and '90's. They were just magic. Once again, I know we all love what we've got, troubles and all, but especially for you younger folks, or people just getting your first Doberman, this is how 95% of them use to be.

 
I just stumbled across this blog post about Jake, born 1985. This dog reminds me SO much of my Dietrich, born in 1992. We didn't have stories like this, but the ease of "doing it all" without trying or working hard at training. And she looked like this dog with a feminine twist. This is how I remember all the Dobermans in the '80's and '90's. They were just magic. Once again, I know we all love what we've got, troubles and all, but especially for you younger folks, or people just getting your first Doberman, this is how 95% of them use to be.

that a beautiful article, thank you for sharing. Mine were never quite that magical. Loyal, loving and smart. Lance knew how to open and shut the fridge and leave the empty bowls so the kids would get blamed. He could open the oven, take out the left over pizza, and leave me the box, with the banana peppers carefully picked off and left in the box on the floor. Such great memories of my old time dobs!
 
I just stumbled across this blog post about Jake, born 1985. This dog reminds me SO much of my Dietrich, born in 1992. We didn't have stories like this, but the ease of "doing it all" without trying or working hard at training. And she looked like this dog with a feminine twist. This is how I remember all the Dobermans in the '80's and '90's. They were just magic. Once again, I know we all love what we've got, troubles and all, but especially for you younger folks, or people just getting your first Doberman, this is how 95% of them use to be.

This reminds me of my first Dobe, Magnum, born in '96 if I recall correctly. I touched upon a few of his achievements a while back – a couple of which I think leave folks not believing me.

Speaking of which, did the man really not foresee that throwing that stick into the raging river would cause Jake to jump in? I know I've read the general story before regarding the door being broken in, and the victim's dog already having quickly dispatched the attacker's dog before saving him. Must've been this story.

Jake sounds like a real wonderDobe! Speaking of which, you out there anywhere, @AresMyDobie ?

Odd, but
 
I just stumbled across this blog post about Jake, born 1985. This dog reminds me SO much of my Dietrich, born in 1992. We didn't have stories like this, but the ease of "doing it all" without trying or working hard at training. And she looked like this dog with a feminine twist. This is how I remember all the Dobermans in the '80's and '90's. They were just magic. Once again, I know we all love what we've got, troubles and all, but especially for you younger folks, or people just getting your first Doberman, this is how 95% of them use to be.

Is it odd when I read this it sounds like Ripley? When I was younger I always wanted a dog that tagged along and was virtually my shadow. Like in the movies with a boy and his dog, wherever the boy went, the dog followed along. Ripley is that. The do it all dream dobe for me. She amazes me so much. She taught herself how to open our pantry door, looking for any dropped crumbs... and can let herself out when the door auto closes behind her. So many other self taught behaviors. I am not trying to brag at all, I was just under the impression that I thought the breed was still like Jake and Ripley...that's why I love the breed so much, but maybe I am wrong! Very interesting to hear.
 
it sounds like Ripley
I think there are many dogs still like this - I don't doubt at all that Ripley is one of them.

I just believe (from being old enough to have seen those 1970's - '90's dogs, that they were almost all like this! And what I'm seeing now is that they mostly aren't. I know Ripley has an edge to her that I like so much. This was what was being weeded out of the show dogs on purpose to assure they'd be great family dogs. With that, the really hard working Dobes became a drop in the bucket. Somewhere in the bottleneck of the gene pool the show & working dogs became more & more separated by what each group was trying to build up in their dogs until you rarely see the lines mixed. Which bottlenecked the breed even more and made the extremes even more exaggerated. My theory anyway... 😅 As I said when starting this thread, it's like so many great characteristics of the breed snowballed until they are not great anymore. The wanting to be close and in the same room with you has become insecurity and separation anxiety. The watchfulness is either barely there or unnecessary explosive barking at everything. Same with suspicion. Too much trust & love for strangers or explode barking if I accidentally bumped my foot on my chair and it sounds like a door knock... I DID look at show-bred dogs at first and they were lovely dogs with great temperaments. The breeder had some IGP 3 dogs in the 3rd generation back and said some of her dogs offspring had worked a bit. I had a chance to see a working seminar where she happened to take the sire of the litter I was interested in and the helper could not engage that dog at all. Zero drive, he just was not cut out for the sport. I liked everything about him (yes, he had his CH) except that I knew his puppies would not have what I wanted in my puppy, so I went to strictly working breeders. Only after I got my puppy did I realize that somewhere that all-around good dog had been pushed back in trade for super vigilance and suspicion, on-tilt prey and defense was there instead. As you've seen on this very forum, the behavior problems people are experiencing with their puppies and adolescent dogs are not simply training problems.
 
This reminds me of my first Dobe, Magnum, born in '96 if I recall correctly. I touched upon a few of his achievements a while back – a couple of which I think leave folks not believing me.

Speaking of which, did the man really not foresee that throwing that stick into the raging river would cause Jake to jump in? I know I've read the general story before regarding the door being broken in, and the victim's dog already having quickly dispatched the attacker's dog before saving him. Must've been this story.
Yeah, some of the dogs of that day, including mine were so perfect in so many ways it would sound as if we were making it up. And I found myself in disbelief of the kind of hard work and dedication it took/takes to keep Asha in line, whereas with Dietrich it was like she trained by osmosis.

I thought the same thing about the stick. You just don't do that. :bag:
 

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