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Discussion "Avoiding the Accident"

Discussion in 'Doberman Breeders' started by FredC, Jan 19, 2009.

  1. DoberDon

    DoberDon Hot Topics Subscriber

    Wouldn't you think the AKC would realize how responsible it would be to change their rules and allow "fixed" dogs to show? I personally think they've lost touch and are no more about bettering the breed anymore than our politicians are about representing the people who elected them! No offence to anyone who's involved with them,just my opinion.

  2. Silent

    Silent Novitiate

    They can compete in any other event.
  3. Velmadobe

    Velmadobe New Member

    I've heard other people say this and I tend to think it is due to the fact that not everyone understands what conformation shows really are all about. The majority of the people who show are doing so in order to "test" out their breeding stock against other peoples breeding stock with an impartial judge. Of course it gets more complicated that that, but the WHOLE idea behind conformation showing is to prove your breeding stock ............. THAT is why all conformation animals have to be intact. The only time when they can be spay/neutered is when there is a non-regular Veterans class since the majority of the breeders out there do spay/neuter their dogs once their breeding days are over, but some people enjoy being able to bring them out occasionally for a veterans class. Most veterans enjoy coming back into the ring also .... most dogs I know love to show and the veterans class normally is the loudest class since everybody cheers for them - not a dry eye sometimes when you get a really oldie but goodie dog in the ring :)

    You are able to show a spay/neutered dog in any other AKC venue: obedience/rally/agility, etc....... In fact, you can even show a rescued dog with no papers - you simply have to get an ILP listing number with the AKC .... and they HAVE to be spay/neutered in order to get an ILP (Indefinate listing privilage) number for them.

    When you go to a conformation show, you will see some real serious people ring side - for them it is not just a beauty contest.... this is where they see how the dogs they bred stack up against other breeders dogs.... with the standard as the real judge no matter what the judge that day decides. The dogs in the ring are their future in the breed ... and they can't be spay/neutered to carry on the breed ;)
  4. FredC

    FredC Guest

    While i understand what your saying Velma. Its hard to see the real usefullness to this sometimes considering the interpatation of the standard can very so widely. I have noticed a champion or potential champion in one part of the country may not even point in another part of the country. actually ive noticed different types pointing verys significantly from state to state. Fortunatly for me the Euro style is gaining favor in my area right now.

    Im not really knocking the system. but i do question it from time to time. and it is also my belief that it is my duty to question the populer ethics to better understand the system. Sometime all it takes is a simple sentence to set me straight and other times theres nothing anybody can say to get me to agree. I dont make the rules but i do try to follow them even when its against my better judgement. But we as exibitors need to realize somethings do date and sometimes there is nothing to be gained by holding true to old ideals. Im not speaking on anything in particular at this point. Just a few of my personal observations and opinions
  5. MLR

    MLR Novitiate

    Thought provoking and very well stated VonDoom.
  6. Miller Dobes

    Miller Dobes Novitiate

    Good post Velma.

    Voom, you are right. Judges are human and will interrupt the standard differently. But I've always thought a good dog will rise to the occasion. Some judges are better than others. They come with lots of differences in experience. They might prefer a certain type of dog but all judges should use the standard. With dobermans, I've always heard it is the most competive in the breed rings. With that sometimes it is the smallest of perfection that matters. You have to have an very determined and open mind to stay in showing dobermans.

    I showed my puppy a few years back. I had group winning and BIS toys so winning that puppy class wasn't much fun. (I only have dobies now) I handled ya know. I mean it should of been fun to win that puppy class but truthful I was a little discouraged. The people were nice but in most other breeds ya win a little easier. I'll let you know later when I show my red girl locally. I just think that there are some aweful beautiful dogs in the ring. I am just hoping I don't make a fool of myself....as showing dobies is way different and so competitive. I understand what you are saying though.

  7. Velmadobe

    Velmadobe New Member

    You are always going to find personal differences - judges are after all only human and too many of them don't know our breed very well . You will also find some variety in the different geographic regions ...even within the same area.... but for the most part a truly good dog will win anywhere - and if that truly good dog is from European bloodlines then more power to them. We have seen a lot of influx from South America and I don't personally care for most of them, but in some areas they win - and we are seeing a lot of South American/N. American breeding in Dobermans - sometimes you get the best of both, and sometimes you get the worst of both.

    Truthfully, the quality in Dobermans is pretty high when compared to other breeds. We have a very good written standard compared to a lot of other breeds also. If some of the other breeds had to be judged without massive amounts of coat to disguise their faults, it would be easier to see just how good the Dobermans are. That is why the Doberman is always a threat in the group ring - their overall quality is just so good.

    There will always be a fair amount of differences between different lines/geographic areas/ and just personal preferences. That does not mean that they don't fit within the standard. Our standard is well written but it is only describing the ideal dog .... which we all know does not exist. A breeders job is to try to come as close to that standard as possible - being able to see your dog compared to others in a show ring is one of the best ways IMHO to see how you are doing ..........otherwise it just becomes your own personal vision and that is when a breed starts to fall apart and stray far far from the standard.

    Conformation is not the whole dog - but it is a big part of the whole. Conformation shows do have a purpose in the big scheme. Breeders spend a lot of time/effort/money/sweat/tears etc... producing dogs that can go into the ring and win when compared to the standard - when all you see is the actual show, you (generic you) don't have any idea of what all went into getting to that point. It is not a perfect system - but perfect does not exist in the real world. Personal integrity plays a big part - and most good breeders are very aware that their good reputation depends on their integrity in regards to producing the best dog that they can in all aspects.

    It's funny actually how people react when they see a truly good dog in public. I took Harvard to the local feed store the other day and one of the young guys that works there just looked at Harvard and said that he was perfect - I told him that no he isn't perfect, but he is about as close to it as most people will ever see. I thought about how many generations went into producing this one dog - and how many people really give so much of their life to producing generation after generation of good dogs ... in any breed. If you love purebred dogs, then thank a good breeder .... without them and those written standards and dog shows, many breeds would be unrecognizable in just a few generations. You don't really have to look around very hard to see why. It is easy. I can't even count how many times I have heard people say that their dog looks nothing like the dogs you see in the shows on TV - a few generations of poor breeding will almost eliminate breed type - in any breed. I think of the min-pin down the street that is almost double the standard size and whose gait does not in any way resemble what a min-pin is supposed to move like ....yet it is a purebred - in name only. I think of some of the Dobermans I've seen in rescue - many even come in with their papers - some barely resemble the breed beyond the coloring and markings.

    Dog shows are not perfect - but if you really like the look of a Doberman and you want to still be able to see them in 20 or 30 years.... then conformation shows are how we do it - and not just in the AKC. Like I said - conformation is a big part of what a Doberman is ...... they have to look like a Doberman first. I'm not discounting all the other parts of what a Doberman is either but you can't ignore the standard.
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  8. dobesanddragons

    dobesanddragons New Member

    Great post!
    I looked for a "thank you" button, but couldn't find it to thank you so I just did this :) lol.

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