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Canine von Willebrand's Disease

Discussion in 'Doberman Nutritional Care' started by deladobies, Feb 21, 2009.

  1. Silent

    Silent Novitiate

    The majority of pet people do not test unless they have a problem. Some do test hips if they plan to do agility.

  2. MLR

    MLR Novitiate

    I don't completely agree with the statement that pet people don't test unless there's a problem. When a person pays what they do for a dobe they keep up with it's health be it a companion animal or a show dog. Whether a pet dobe owner knows what to look out for, or not, is immaterial; their vet does. I agree, I didn't know a thing about Vwd until my last dog was diagnosed with it. But this was found during a routine annual exam not because she was experiencing any difficulty at the time from having it. Did I start out with a list of deseases and other malady's I wanted the vet to rule out; no. That's what we pay medical professionals to keep up with. In any class of people you are always going to find those who don't take the trouble to keep abreast of the trends in health care for their particular animal, however, those individuals are the exception, not the rule. It is a rare month when my vet bills don't exceed my own personal health care costs. And I think I'm in the majority here. Don't even get me started on the first year medical expenses of owning a dobe. lol. Just my take on this issue.:)
  3. Silent

    Silent Novitiate

    I did not mean vWD specifically, I meant things like thyroid, cardio, cerf. I think even pets should be tested for vWD unless parentage shows they could not be affected. I don't want pet people to get the impression that they have to spend thousands on testing yearly the way a responsible breeder should.

    As you said the vet usually determines if testing should be done and for what when there is an indication of a problem to him or you feel there is. That is why yearly exams are important even if your on a every 3 yr vaccination schedule. Vets do Know what to look for and what to test for. However many do not know the DNA test for vWD even exists, many in this area still do elisa tests. Before a procedure they should do a clotting time test regardless of dna vwd status. Most don't xray hips unless they have a limp or the vet feels an abnormality in movement (my vet manually moves each leg holding the dog at the joint on every visit) or it is suggested by someone already in a club or group because they want to do agility etc.

    The majority of dobe owners are not even on forums, look at the membership numbers of any board compared to the number of dobes out there.

    In my area there are a lot of people including my neighbors who will spend $300 for a dog, complain about the price, feed it ol'roy and put it down rather than take it to a vet if they have a problem. Many here don't even vaccinate. I have people behind me that go through about 3 dogs a year average for the last 5 yrs. They get out of the fence and eventually the dog catcher picks them up. They will not pay the $50 fee to get them back and go to court and pay fines for the lack of rabies tags... and they end up PTS.... and they get another dog. Right now they have a bad example of an english bulldog with apri papers they paid $300 for and were proud enough of him to come to the fence to talk about it. The ol'roy bag is sitting on the back porch and the dog lives in the yard.

    I see dobes on dallas craiglist all the time who are being sold for $100-$250, who have been kept outside and the ads almost always say they are not current on shots, many have never been tested or put on heartworm preventive.... in texas...
  4. MLR

    MLR Novitiate

    "Posted by: Silent .....Vets do Know what to look for and what to test for. However many do not know the DNA test for vWD even exists, many in this area still do elisa tests. Before a procedure they should do a clotting time test regardless of dna vwd status. Most don't xray hips unless they have a limp or the vet feels an abnormality in movement (my vet manually moves each leg holding the dog at the joint on every visit) or it is suggested by someone already in a club or group because they want to do agility etc."

    Since persons entering Veterinary school must have a higher GPA than is required for prospective doctors to study medicine, this makes no sense to me. Here in Michigan we are fortunate to have top rate Veterinary teaching shcools connected to our biggest medical universities and Vet clinitions who keep abreast of all factions of their profession. Most attend seminars and continue their education all through their practice. In this day and age of court room drama it would be pretty hard to find anyone, even a lay person, who didn't know of the existance and importance of DNA testing for medical issues. Most Vets are also connected to the internet and can look up the same case studies for animals that doctors do when diagnosing and treating things like cancer in people. I'd say the days of the old country vet taking chickens in exchange for his services are pretty much behind us. At least that's been my experience, speaking strictly about the health care of dobermans.
  5. Silent

    Silent Novitiate

    That is not the way it is in north texas and south oklahoma. Here we still have lots of farm vets and I can provide you with the name and phone number of at least 3 who do not have internet access or at least claim they don't. I can send you copies of documents where generalized demodex as well as a very obvious physical congenital defect was totally not seen or diagnosed by one of them. I can even send you links to photos of it where you will see it is an obvious defect.

    Forums cover big areas both in the USA and other countries. Not all vets are as up to date as we would like. In rural areas there are still a lot of old school farm vets. I have one locally that is gone to continuing education classes through texas a&m almost as much as he is in his office. It depends on the vet and the area. The average office visit fee is $45 in the area. Two farm vet in okla has an office fee of $10, you get what you pay for.

    Yes they have to have descent grades but some of the ones around this area went to school 40+ years ago. Some do not do stool samples for worms because they consider it a waste of money, if in doubt they treat for it, operating on the theory that it won't hurt and that most dogs need routinely wormed. Especially since a large number are outside only dogs or farm dogs.
  6. MLR

    MLR Novitiate

    Wow. That's so sad to even think about. I guess we in Michigan are indeed lucky.
  7. zoorox

    zoorox Notable member

    hahahahahahahahaaha! I am one who doesnt bring in a stool sample for my animals.......not ever! because I also feel it is a waste of time and money. I just worm them regular.....because most likely they have worms of some sort. drontal plus is my pill of choice in fact I just wormed 5 cats and 5 dogs 2 days ago ha! if you only have one dog and never take it out of your yard you probably dont need to worm as often. but heck! worm eggs are EVERYWHERE and even we humans track them inside our homes. my animals are exposed to areas wild animals are.........so I dont bother with a stool sample..........just give me the pills please!!! the pills are expensive enough :)

    I also believe affected dogs should not be bred. breed the carriers to clear or clear to clear to build a gene pool without affected dogs.........make them the new z! ha!
  8. Miller Dobes

    Miller Dobes Novitiate

    Ok, so you guys think that carriers bleed.......and that Vwd is the worse thing since Bush took office......LOL

    Well, MY OPINION and the opinion of most anyone that has read the VenGen report is that Vwd is a disease that can be bred out by using their recommendations. If you want to think, it can't and that the people that found the gene isn't right.......then, fine. Some people believed the world was flat at one time too. It is accepted by the breeders and Scientists so let's move on......lol...

  9. Miller Dobes

    Miller Dobes Novitiate

    In the south, most of us use heartworm medication so the dogs never have to be wormed. Worming grown dogs too much isn't good for them (in my opinion).

  10. zoorox

    zoorox Notable member

    it sure can be bred out but not by breeding affected dogs......if you are trying to rid a breed of a gene.....like the z factor you dont breed them. it only makes since not to breed affected dogs carrier and clear only would get rid of it faster. but just as there are folks who will still breed z factor dogs......there are folks who will breed Vwd affected dogs.
  11. Panama

    Panama Hot Topics Subscriber

    You can breed an Affected dog and still get ZERO affected pups simply by breeding to a clear. As stated so many times, the gene pool would be so small if just Clears were bred, that all you would end up with is Mother to Son, Father to daughter and sibling breedings. That does nothing but compound other more detrimental & potentially deadly issues that afflict the breed.

    Using the vWD Affected dogs that exsist and breeding away from it.
    Bred to a Clear will produce a full litter of Carriers. The pups from that litter, (with full health screening) being bred to a Clear will produce a litter of 50% Clears & 50% Carriers thus eliminating the # of Affected pups produced and even reducing the Carrier's by 50% yet keeping a good gene pool and contributing to eliminating from bloodlines.
    • Like Like x 1
  12. Faber

    Faber Jr Member

    I already appoligized for getting heated. Now I guess all I have to say is that the discusion was about vwd and it's effect on our breed.

    -I'm sorry for your woes with your animals, I'm sorry there are bad breeders....but now we're discussing things other then vwd....how was that a factually based rebutle on the discussion subject?

    If we want to work toward breeding out vwd appropriately over time.....without narrowing the pool to the point we escalate other issues, then great....of course we should. But, to try to blow it up into something it statistaclly and therefore factually isn't....won't help anyone.
    -Creating histeria over a subject by comparing it to serious threats and issues effecting our breed, doesn't do anything positive.
    --Puting the letters "vwd" into a paragraph with names of much greater killers doesn't make it as bad. Nor does talking about and looking at the effects of bad breeders involoving any subject other then vwd. If you want to discuss bad breeders and other things then discuss that....
    --As far as the allergy comment, then I guess your correct and I mistook your comment....apparently you actually meant that allergies ARE a greater threat then vwd in its worste affected form....and I'm sure your right.
    I'm really not sure what else to say....sorry if I angered you....my comments were on the subject vwd only and were in no way to be reflected on the subject of bad breeders and the other more serious issues they cause. That is a different subject. Anyway, I prefer to do more research, and educate myself....and am inclined to proably believe the people who study each subject and prepare myself from their data....not go off of opionions on an internet forum not based in fact and hysteria by throwing different subjects into the same paragraph.
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Faber

    Faber Jr Member

    I'm gonna stay out of this discussion.....
  14. deladobies

    deladobies Member

    Alright guys, Group hug.... :)
  15. zoorox

    zoorox Notable member

    becky.....the heartworm meds only get a few kinds of worms. the big guy tape worm is not gotten with the heartworm meds. I use revolution for heatworms and around here it seems to work well on our ticks. since I havent found a tick in over 3 years.it is either the revolution or the guinea birds :)..........anyhow......after finding tiny white worms in my cat litter box.......talking to the vet......she said tape worm is not gotten by the heartworm meds. so we give the drontal 2 times a year. but as I said we are in the country with high wild animal traffic :)
  16. Panama

    Panama Hot Topics Subscriber

    Iverhart Max. It is a monthly heartworm preventative and it treats and controls roundworms, hookworms, and tapeworms.
  17. Silent

    Silent Novitiate

    To those who use Iverheart Max there is a $5 rebate on their site http://www.iverhart.com/Rebate/

    SENTINEL also is used for heartworm, whipworms, roundworms, hookworms and non adult fleas.
    It does not kill adult fleas


    There are two types of tape, one from fleas and one from wildlife like rabbits.
    I also worm every 6mths with pancur. I have never had a flea/tapeworm problem.​
  18. Miller Dobes

    Miller Dobes Novitiate

    Panama, this is what I use too. Doesn't it treat whips too? I have never had worms in my dogs since using it and living out with dogs that go off lead alot, I would think it covers those too. We still check them when they have their yearly checkups.

    But Silent, you are so right on some of the vets in the south. Some will just say worm them and others will do the tests. I have just done the tests for years and part of the routine. I'd rather know what kind of worms or if they have them at all. I hate to give chemicals that aren't necessary. I do think the main point is that you do something because in our area and maybe others, it is a problem. Thanks for the coupon, silent.

  19. Miller Dobes

    Miller Dobes Novitiate

    Thanks for all the research and quoting VenGen. We can beat an old horse to death. The information is on their site and quoted again and again. I'm done with it too.

    Thanks Panama for stating the ways to improve the breed and the posts that support the new research.

    Thanks for all the other posted too. It is my opinion that I will go with the researchers and Scientists at VenGen. I will test, and if I ever bred again, I will use their recommendations to improve my dobermans or be prepared for my babies. That just makes sense to me.

    Hug your dogs today! :D

  20. diekrazy

    diekrazy Active Member

    "In studies of healthy Dobermans, 35% are genetically affected (two copies of the mutant gene), 50% are carriers (one copy of the mutant gene) and 15% are clear (no copies of the mutant gene). Most Dobermans who are genetically affected will never have a bleeding problem. However, as times of stress or surgery may lead to bleeding problems, you may, as an educated Doberman Pinscher owner, opt to test your dog. One might request the vet keep desomepressin, and at times of scheduled surgery fresh frozen plasma, or cryoprecipitate (clotting factors) on hand, in case of emergency"

    My question is in this study of healthy dobermans how many were tested? If not everyone tests for vWd how can this be accurate to the whole breed that is out there?

    I agree that more tests need to be done on the dobes of the world and that just because they are registered does not mean that it is a seal of approval for health. After all the AKC is just a registry. The health and well being for any and all dobes is what any owner should strive for. The only way to achieve greater health and well being for our dobes is to have them tested.

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