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Canine von Willebrand's Disease

Discussion in 'Doberman Nutritional Care' started by deladobies, Feb 21, 2009.

  1. deladobies

    deladobies Member

    Thanks guys, the info I got was only from one site... I really wanted to learn more about it... When Jewels and Rome go in to be s/n I am going to try and have them tested for anything that I can... I know some test are at certain ages but anything that they are ready for they WILL get..

    One reason of coarse is for the pups and future owners, the other is so I can take the best care of my guys... I have a 14 year old border collie that I love more then life itself, and want to give my dobes every chance at a long healty life...

    Thanks again I will continue to reserch more, and update often.. For those of you who have affected dogs thank you for sharing, every bit of information that can be passed first hand helps others who are just startin out...


    and thanks vdoom for the ignore feature.... I wish I knew about that one sooner...
     
  2. diekrazy

    diekrazy Active Member


    Is there a list online for Vwd carrier clear or affected?
     
  3. Silent

    Silent Novitiate

    Dela you need to order the vwd test from vetgen. Until the end of the month they are half price through the current clinic. The elisa test a vet or univesity does will not give you the dna vwd status. It can be done at only a few days old and never changes. Its done with swabs rubbed in the mouth and you do it at home and return the swabs vetgen sends results via mail or email in about 2 wks.
     
  4. DobieLvr

    DobieLvr Novitiate


    AND you think that is reasons to breed her?? You are improving the Doberman bloodlines?? That is a good enough reason to breed? Personally, I think the best thing you can do for the Doberman breed is spay her.
     
  5. Silent

    Silent Novitiate

    OFA will list results submitted to them on vwd
    http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/7109/vetgen.html is an old list
    breeders also list vwd certificate #s and results on their sites.

    There are other lists that are through listserves but they are not published to the public non members.

    You may find more searching longer.
     
  6. Panama

    Panama Hot Topics Subscriber

    Select to receive results via email..... you get them quicker!!!
     
  7. Miller Dobes

    Miller Dobes Novitiate

    Dela, if you test the parents you MAY know the status of the puppies. There is a Vwd chart posted on Vengen's website that tells you all the at risk breedings and recommendation. Some combinations are exact. Glad to hear you are considering this.

    Best Wishes,
    Becky
     
  8. Miller Dobes

    Miller Dobes Novitiate

    I may do that, but if you breed her to a clear dog you will get 100% carriers and they do not bleed. I gave her as an example. According to VenGen, if you take a carrier and bred to a clear, you get 50% clear. This is called a "safe breeding" on their explainations of how to increase the gene pool of clear dogs. A way to produce more clears, increase the gene pool, and improve.

    She was just an example of what is stated on VenGen's website. Know I don't bred often and some of my dogs are fixed too. I haven't bred her yet and have had her for over a year. Vwd will only be one part of many considerations and frankly, I'm not sure what I will do. Right now she's in obedience classes and agility. She's got a great home and breeding her may never happen. Thanks for your opinion.

    Becky

    Becky
     
  9. DobieLvr

    DobieLvr Novitiate

    Well considering your love for the breed and how adamant you are on promoting a healthy dog - I would think unless the dog were a clear - that you wouldn't in good consciencious add to anything that wasn't "excellent in hips" - vwd Clear and had good hearts.. etc. There is or has been enough breeders in the US with your thinking about vwd that if it truly worked - it would be gone by now. I don't know where you learned genetics - but you never get rid of a gene...
     
  10. Panama

    Panama Hot Topics Subscriber

    Do any of you use DobeQuest? Have any of you looked at the health testing done on some of the late greats? Dogs that if weren't bred, probably the better part of 70% or better of us wouldn't have the very dogs or bloodlines we have today.
     
  11. Miller Dobes

    Miller Dobes Novitiate

    You get one gene from each parent, not two. It is possible for a dog not to carry a gene carrier by the parent. I am a Biology teacher but I do know this much.

    And you are right I do care about the health of my dogs and make sure they are tested as all dogs should be. Are any of your dogs tested for anything?

    In OFA, three experts look at the hip xray. The lowest rating is used. Fair, Good, and Excellent ratings means the dogs will not have hip dysplasia in their lifetime. It is a one time test. Although, an excellent hip rating can produce a dysplasic dog, it is the only test we have. Dogs are often tested so that if that do have dyplasia they don't get worse with performance events. You test so you know If your dog has dysplasia. Tests can vary according to the xray and positioning.

    Becky
     
  12. Miller Dobes

    Miller Dobes Novitiate

  13. DobieLvr

    DobieLvr Novitiate

    I was not rude to you - you simply took it that way.

    Again, why would I test for anything? ALL my dogs were neutered at a young age I might add - I have no concerns with breeding ever again. I did that for 20 years...
    As for OFA - wouldn't you prefer a A to a D-? Both are passing "grades" - why not strive for the best - not just getting by. I don't see how in good conscienous you would breed dogs with Thyroid (causes small litters and conception problems) and dogs with known health problems that are basically destroying the breed you profess to love and care for. You seemed interested in those of us that own the Euro Dobes...I went that route because the dogs are healthier.... now American breeders will tell everyone that isn't true, but it is and has been. In 50 years breeders have ruined the Doberman in the US - pretty much breeding with the same philosophy that you have - and again my question - why is it still around? Why are there so many dogs currently either carriers or affected. Your dogs are affected?? Thyroid?? So - why are you breeding? Like I asked, how is that bettering the breed - which is what you said you are doing? Because she's smart? She moves well?? Those aren't good enough reasons in my book and no, I'm not being rude - I'm simply questioning your ethics.
     
  14. Silent

    Silent Novitiate

    We need to not let this debate become personal. Everyone is entitled to an opinion and everyone has one lol.

    Please review the guidelines http://www.doberman-chat.com/guidelines.html
    Rule 5: Do not insult or personally attack another member for their views or ideas. Read rule 4 again.
     
  15. DobieLvr

    DobieLvr Novitiate

    Dully noted and I apologize.
     
  16. Faber

    Faber Jr Member

    I didn't bother reading all of this, but it only took a little reading to learn;

    -"However, our Doberman gene pool is already small and currently only 15% of the population tests clear."
    ====Common sense would tell you attempting to only breed in that 15% is gonna cause more serious issues to arrise.

    -"found in one form or another in over 30 breeds of dogs."

    -"In studies of healthy Dobermans, 35% are genetically affected (two copies of the mutant gene), 50% are carriers (one copy of the mutant gene) and 15% are clear (no copies of the mutant gene). Most Dobermans who are genetically affected will never have a bleeding problem. "
    ====that's 85% of Dobes either carrying or affected. and most never have a problem.

    -"Cases of Dobermans having bled to death, due to von Willebrands, have been reported, although this usually occurs after some type of trauma. Most genetically affected Dobermans have injuries, and surgeries, without ANY complications"
    ====the ones who have died from it suffered "trauma"....suggesting a serious injury in the first place.....most AFFECTED DON'T HAVE ANY PROBLEMS....AFFECTED being the worste it can be.

    -"Many owners, and even some veterinarians become panicked at irregularities found in a Doberman, due to not being informed of the latest medical information. "
    ====don't let that happen here.

    -"Some breeders will breed only clear to clear. However, our Doberman gene pool is already small and currently only 15% of the population tests clear. If we highly limited our accessible breeding stock, other problems will emerge as there are many genetic diseases affecting this, and other purebred breeds."
    ====meaning it would be a mistake to breed only to eliminate this problem, compounding more serious ones.

    -"the Doberman an example of a mild form of the disease, the Scottish Terrier and example of the severe form of the disease)."
    ====again, not our greatest concern....there are others more deadly to us.

    Though I'm always concerned with any possible health issue we may face....just from taking the time to read one article, it seams obvious that not only does the worste (affected) dogs of our breed faced with this.... statistacally not face a large threat to their health,.... let alone those that are ony carriers not face a serious threat. It also seems pretty aparent if you limit your gene pool to only breed the 15 out of 100 dobes that are clear, your asking to escalate more serious issues that we face.
    It's not that I'm not concerned, it's that I'm not concerned with a problem that is far down the list as opposed to more serious issues, a problem so wide spread, a problem that trying to defeat could be more deadly to our breed, and one that admitadly by experts doesn't affect our breed at a "severe" level like some other breeds.
    I'm always for studying and improving on issues, that said, I think I would also use the term here; "Pick your battles." And I personally, am not picking this one.

    info. taken from an article found on one of Von's links to diseases;
    http://www.doberman-chat.com/showthread.php?t=1000&page=6
     
  17. DobieLvr

    DobieLvr Novitiate

    You just gave a whole lot of reasons to not breed in all honesty. It seems to me - unless there is another gene pool available - the breed will continue down a unhealthy road.
     
  18. Miller Dobes

    Miller Dobes Novitiate

    I accept that and hope you understand I do not bred dogs yearly, biyearly.....and have had fewer litters in 20 years than you can count on one hand. I bred to keep what dogs I have because they are great dogs to us. They have longivity behind them and they have titles and they are health tested and healthy. I do my best when I do breed to improve. How I do that is based on my opinion, those that sold me dogs, the science available on testing, my webdesigner (who knows a lot) and my dpca mentors. Amoung them are judges, dpca breeder of the year, breeders of Best in Show dogs, and ethical people. I appreciate their help and I listen.

    Amara is affected and has not been bred by me. I used her as an example to show how a gene can be bred out. Whether I bred her or not, is my decision but it will be to improve if I decide to do that. I stated how improving is possible.

    None of my 5 dogs have thyroid problems, old or young ones. They do not have skin problems and have been tested. I test all dogs, spayed or not.

    When OFA or Penn certifies the dogs it means the dog does not have dysplasia. When you OFA an older dog, I was told you may not get excellent ratings but I tested for it because I am asking the dog to jump or do performance events. Doing the test before they are bred is what I am required to do by contract and a lot of ethical breeders will require you to do the test, even if the dog isn't bred. I was told Jumping etc. can make the hips worse on a dog that is dysplastic and if any dog has it...it will hurt them further. This is one reason I tested. If you don't test, that is your decision. I do and do what I think is best for my dogs.

    I have never put down EURO dogs. I've seen a lot of pictures of really nice dogs that aren't American. I think both have a lot to offer. I have even looked into breeding to one, but I haven't decided. I was asking for information. The list has a lot of good dogs, and I thought I could learn more about them. Pacificially, I loved Gino and some of Altobelo (I think that's the name) And you may be right about their health. I just know about my dogs and their health.....and their parents.......and grandparents. Longivity matters to me. I was asking for information on Euro dog and honestly, thought I might learn something. I didn't know that meant something else or would even be thought of as a bad question. I thought this forum would be a good place to find more info on the dogs.

    On the few dogs I have bred, I did sell most of the limited because they were being shown in obedience. I knew these homes were great homes but didn't want them bred without testing and being sure the dog was quality (you can't know for sure at 8-12 weeks) and making sure the novices didn't place puppies in the wrong home. I can tell you we turn down many more people than dogs we have placed. I have never had a dog in rescue and want to make sure of that for generations. We either kept the more promising puppies or they have been placed them with knowledgeable ethical doberman lovers. There maybe a better way but it was what I thought was the best interest of my babies.

    I just hope this explain things to you so let's move on. My dogs are not the issue here, nor am I to blame for the health of the breed. I am responsible for every single dog I produce and they are all alive and well with great homes. Many will soon be joining their grandparents on the longivity list and I'm proud of that. I do know that I spare no expense on trying to do the right thing for the dogs. I don't know everything but I do not support the breeding of albinoism because I believe the research in mammals. If you do or don't, that's fine because all I can control is me. My website is to show off my dogs, not to sell puppies. We have none, have none planned, and if we do, they are spoken for. Now let's move on and if you have anything further to question....email me privately.

    Becky
     
  19. MLR

    MLR Novitiate

    I'm not in on this 'debate' except to the extent that it affects me personally with my own two. Just out of curiosity does anyone have a link to Becky's dobes. I'd at least like see them. If that's possible. They sound absolutely gorgeous.
     
  20. Faber

    Faber Jr Member

    if your talking to me, you need to read it again.

    or i can paraphrase;
    the disease effects 85% of existing dobes....that means to attempt to breed it out- you would exponentially multiply dogs with more severe issues.
    Is that what you would want?

    Also, moreso- the dogs that it effects at its worste....AREN'T EVEN EFFECTED BY IT. The only ones known to die from it HAD ALREADY SUFFERED TRAUMA.

    And were only talking about the 35% that are affected, not the carriers.

    I challenge you to show me any dogs that have died (proof, not my brothers sisters dobe) of it....I'm positive I can show you signifigantly more suffering from more serious issues that affect us. (problems that would be greater if we tried to only breed dogs that are clear of this....if you take that small number of dogs, and only breed them....ANY more serious issues they posses will be multiplied....)

    This may be serious in other breeds, but it obviously isn't our greatest battle.

    I'm not sure how else to say this....
    -it doesn't effect us as severly as other issues
    -more important to try and breed it out will raise the numbers of dogs with by far more serious issues.

    what does this equal?
    -It equals, if we do what you want to do....we can all shout; "Yea! We beat vwd!".......While the multiplied more serious issues that you just caused by tightening an already tight breeding pool, kill our dogs for real!
     

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