Beware Pamelot Dobermans

[Pmgrant0922]

I will qualify this up front as this was my experience, and of course I'm inviting the hordes to snap back in reply, but for those out there considering a breeder, I strongly suggest avoiding Pamelot Dobermans. If you look her up online (which I did back in 2019 when researching breeders) you'll read all about her past bona fides, her tenure with the breed, her past champions, etc. I don't dispute that at one time she was at the top of the game, but I believe that she's been resting on her laurels. I'll also state that before anyone cries foul, or she or one of her employees or associates writes back claiming I'm exaggerating or maligning her, I'm more than willing to share all the documentation and correspondence between myself and Pam prior to, during, and after I brought my pup home and the medical nightmare ensued.
Bottom line, when she states that she tests her litters for VWD, I'd request an independent test. I was told that my dog was clear, and after later dialogue with her, she admitted that my dog was a "carrier." False. My dog was positive.
My dog was sick from day one, with recurring bacterial and urinary tract infections. So many that at one point my vet told me that we had to stop giving her antibiotics for a bit because she'd become immune.
I remember when I first went to her kennel in 2019 for my interview to determine if I was the right person to get one of her pups, whereas she had numerous questions for me, when I asked to walk the kennel and inspect its conditions, I was not allowed to, and instead was told that one of her assistants would bring the pups to the front room. I should have keyed in on that. A month and a half later when I came back to pick up my pup, she wasn't there and while her assistant was out of the room doing something, I took it upon myself to check the place out. Filthy. I'm not talking lots-of-dogs-and-puppies-live-here filth, I'm talking squalid. It looked like a puppy mill and there were puppies just laying around everywhere listless. I was excited about my pup, so perhaps its on me for not walking away at that point, but take it for what it's worth.
The medical bills for my dog have been mind-boggling. Yes, it's what you sign up for when you bring a pup into your family and treat is as a member of your family, but on more than a few occasions vets, emergency vets, and specialists have commented, "I'm sorry, but your dog is a lemon."
Fast forward to the present. After my dog was recently hospitalized (again), this time after going into shock following a teeth cleaning, we learned that she has Addison's. And Wobblers. You can argue that Wobblers develops in many dogs in later years, but Juno is 5 years old. VWD+, Addisonian, and Wobblers. Juno is 5, and she's already basically a senior dog on Prednisone and DOCP injections, with a limping gait, and has to be treated with kid gloves as you'd treat a senior dog. We love her, and have spared no expense, but I expected far better from a supposed paragon of the Doberman world and past president of the DPCA.
Again, experiences vary, and I'm more than ready for the hordes to reply back stating how great and healthy their Pamelot Doberman is, but for those pondering a choice between breeders, do you really want to pay top dollar for a supposed purebred from a breeder that puts out at least one unhealthy dog?

 

[JanS]

Welcome from Minnesota and I'm sorry to hear of your experience. I don't think any of us are going to snap back at you or bash you since we want to hear both sides of the story.

 

[Ddski5]

So sorry you have to experience this. It’s heart wrenching to not be able to do anything about it.

 

[lanyvy]

I think its important you dared to share this even if you feel like you might get backlash. I wish the best for your dog.

 

[Gpcoguy]

I'm surprised to hear that. I have one of Pam's dogs, born 3-1-2020. No health problems at all over 4 1/2 years

 

[Ravenbird]

First of all, let me say I'm sorry to hear of your on-going problems with your dog. It must be incredibly hard to deal with these medical issues.

That said, I'm not sure it warrants coming down on the breeder. I have no relationship with this breeder nor does my dog carry a single Pamelot bred dog in her pedigree, so I'm looking at this strictly from your story.

when she states that she tests her litters for VWD, I'd request an independent test. I was told that my dog was clear, and after later dialogue with her, she admitted that my dog was a "carrier." False. My dog was positive.

VWD is classified as Clear, Carrier and Affected. It is one of the easiest predictable genetic diseases to avoid. I'm assuming this breeder did have health testing on her breeding pairs and so would know if the litter had possibilities of Affected puppies and thus test them before sending them to their new homes. You, as a buyer, should have also known by reviewing the health tests of the parents. (if you didn't know better then, you do now. We all make mistakes just by not knowing better!) If she actually tested all the puppies before placing them, she definitely (in my opinion of a reputable breeder) should have let you know if you were getting an affected puppy and given you the results of said test. Clears & Carriers have zero chance of being affected by VWD and by careful breeding choices there is no reason to produce Affected. Many breeders don't think it's that big of a deal, but as a puppy buyer if you see breedings of Carrier x Carrier or an Affected x Carrier then you can avoid that breeder or request a test before accepting the puppy from that cross.

her assistant was out of the room doing something, I took it upon myself to check the place out.

This is trespassing, Breeders don't allow people to go into kennels with puppies for more reasons than one. I find this discrediting to your credibility.

As far as I'm aware, there is no genetic testing for Addisons or Wobblers, so I don't know how the breeder could know to breed away from chances on this. Addisons can be for several reasons, one being auto immune system, which is also a reason for high cancer rates in dogs. Wobblers does seem to run in some lines of Dobermans but since it does usually present in later years, many times it isn't seen or been the COD. What I'm saying is that Dobermans have sadly become a breed with shorter and shorter lifespans. We often learn with our shattered hearts how to look harder and harder for a better health record.

do you really want to pay top dollar for a supposed purebred from a breeder that puts out at least one unhealthy dog?

Your use of the word "supposed purebred" is misleading. I don't doubt for a minute that this breeder has produced any thing but purebreds. Purebred does not mean healthy. And just because a dog gets cancer, heart disease, auto-immune problems, thyroid & liver disease, hip dysplasia etc etc etc does not always mean that the breeder didn't do their best. Again, I'm not taking up for this breeder. If they knowingly bred with possible VWD Affected pups, that (unfortunately) is not unheard of.

I've learned a ton in the past few years and it's distressing how the longevity of the Doberman has diminished. There is not a breeder alive that has not produced "at least one unhealthy dog", or litter after litter that every single pup lives to be 10. I'm not blaming you for needing to vent, I just want you to be aware that the things you list may or may not have been preventable. And if you choose to get another Doberman (or any purebred dog for that matter), we, the buyers, are most responsible for doing our homework, especially in a breed riddled with early deaths. Grill your breeder for knowledge of COD's in their lines. If they don't want to talk about it, move on. Ask about health problems that cannot be tested for genetically. Ask about the health of previous litters by that sire or out of that bitch. Go to Dobequest and start keeping tabs on the amount of inbreeding and line breeding. Keep tabs on the ones breeding for longevity - they will have a LV10, 11, 12 etc. to say how long they lived if they made it past 10 years. Let breeders know that you are actively looking for Health First.

I may not sound like it, but I AM on your side. I'm sick of seeing so many sick Dobermans and I'm convinced that the only way we can do better is by learning all we can about the health problems in our breed.

 

[Two Dobes]

Sorry for your experience....I think many of us who have been in dobes for years have had some type of experience like this; I know I have. It's heartbreaking, and as @Ravenbird said; doing research is the most important thing when buying a breed with so many health issues. I personally will always have dobermans, and some of these issues are something I will always have to deal with.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

This is trespassing, Breeders don't allow people to go into kennels with puppies for more reasons than one. I find this discrediting to your credibility.

Come on now. You're calling trespassing? Maybe technically it is, for all I know; but sometimes you've got to take a bold step to advocate for yourself. It does not affect their credibility in my view.

The fact that the breeder reportedly would not allow her kennel to be viewed is not a great look. Maybe a kennel tour was not prescheduled; I don't know. The description of the conditions of it is quite concerning, but at the same time it's subjective. Life can be busy and messy. The pups lying around listlessly, well, that does seem odd but maybe most of the pups that were in view were just having sleep time or had just eaten a big meal.

@Pmgrant0922 , was a tour or viewing of the kennel prearranged or was it asked for on the spot? Either way, it is not a good sign that the kennel viewing was denied. If they had fallen behind on potty cleanup at that time, that's understandable but I'd hope it is not the case all the time.

 

[Ravenbird]

Any place of business has the right to have "employees only beyond this point" areas. Restaurants, Vet Clinics, Walmart, Animal Shelters and yes, dog breeders that have kennels or use their own homes to raise pups. MANY breeders don't allow buyers or potential buyers to walk in the kennel area, mainly due to possible contagions. There were several comments (not here on DCF) by breeders in a discussion about the Dobe breeder who got killed in Colorado saying "and this is yet another reason why we breeders don't allow visitor access". If it's important to you as a buyer that you see and visit the breeders facility and they say they don't allow it, move on to another breeder who does. But sneaking to the back while the employee is not looking? Sorry, I'm one of those "my place, my rules" kind of people. I'd be totally pissed if I'd told someone they weren't allowed in my yard to pet my dog and then found on my security cam that very person letting themselves in the gate to pet my dog. I'd be beyond pissed off.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I'd be totally pissed if I'd told someone they weren't allowed in my yard to pet my dog and then found on my security cam that very person letting themselves in the gate to pet my dog. I'd be beyond pissed off.

Oh, believe you me. Same here. I've had mailmen and neighbors pet my Dobe over/through my fence and it pisses me off to no end. In MN, there was one woman (quite a nice woman) who was on a little mission to win over my Dobe and would go up to him as he was high up on our back porch wall and sweet talk him and such. I repeatedly asked her to not do that. I had a mailman toss a large basted Milkbone over our backyard privacy fence. It's uncomfortable to ask people to not do that, but I always do.

 

[Ravenbird]

Oh, believe you me. Same here. I've had mailmen and neighbors pet my Dobe over/through my fence and it pisses me off to no end. In MN, there was one woman (quite a nice woman) who was on a little mission to win over my Dobe and would go up to him as he was high up on our back porch wall and sweet talk him and such. I repeatedly asked her to not do that. I had a mailman toss a large basted Milkbone over our backyard privacy fence. It's uncomfortable to ask people to not do that, but I always do.

I thought you were very much the type to keep control over your boundaries, so was quite surprised that you thought it was OK for someone to sneak a look in a prohibited space.

In my opinion breeders have the option to make their own rules for their business, but buyers also have the freedom to move on if they aren't comfortable with that breeders rules. Nobody has the right to go to someone else's property and break their stated rules. It's that simple.

 

[JanS]

MANY breeders don't allow buyers or potential buyers to walk in the kennel area, mainly due to possible contagions.

That is very true and I can't blame them since puppies are so susceptible when their little immune systems aren't fully developed yet.

 

[Rits]

I thought you were very much the type to keep control over your boundaries, so was quite surprised that you thought it was OK for someone to sneak a look in a prohibited space.

In my opinion breeders have the option to make their own rules for their business, but buyers also have the freedom to move on if they aren't comfortable with that breeders rules. Nobody has the right to go to someone else's property and break their stated rules. It's that simple.

Not only that but especially if it is their own home, which it often is. We are already opening ourselves up by letting puppy buyers into our home. To have our privacy invaded by buyers looking into other rooms, especially if doors are closed, is rude. I 100% want people to see the safe and loving environment my puppies are raised in but the story of the doberman breeder being murdered in his home does make me second guess my decisions. Not just having the buyer come but to have my address to come back to anytime in the future... This is why my application process is so extensive with detailed questions, referrals, a waiting list deposit, and a second deposit before ear crops. Hopefully it will weed any unscrupulous people out.

 

[Oh Little Oji]

I have not had a good experience or working relationship with any breeder besides the hobby breeder my first Dobe came from, then the two different working Doberman breeders from whom I got my next two. I've also had a good experience with the guy who runs a small family farm in MI who sold me Zephyr (non-Dobe). He's a down to earth no-nonsense guy and I could tell over the course of months of communications with him that he was trustworthy and we share views on dogs.

The conformation breeders with whom I've communicated have been pretty bad. If they return my communications at all (a HUGE "if"), they are not down to earth and have just strung me along before ghosting me.

So when I heard about Pamalot and the woman's general body of accomplishments I pictured a facility that consisted of a separate building away from her house. I would not say I was okay with someone entering segments of anyone's actual house without permission.

I don't think I got an answer as to whether a kennel tour was prearranged for the O.P. here. My sense was that they thought the were going to be allowed to view the breeding, whelping and puppy raising areas but were denied. That seemed to me to be a suspect situation and I come down on the side of the customer instead of the confo. breeder.

 

[MyBuddy]

The woman breeder who we got our first Doberman from lived in the same town. We actually got to be good friends and I was one of the few people allowed on her property and in her whole home.

She never allow anyone inside, and I think even on the property, when there was a litter on the ground. One time she invited me to come in to take a peek at puppies when they were very young and still nursing. Just as a friendly courtesy because she knew me and she knew I would love to see that. But it was one time and we were very cautious about moving slowly and not getting too close so as not to disturb the mother.

When someone would come see a puppy for sale I don't think she let them in the back where all the dogs were. She would bring them out and show them in her living room. So yeah I think it is a given that their home can be off limits. After all, it is their home.

I remember one time asking her if she was afraid being out there alone. She was divorced and kind of off the beaten path. She said, Come on! With all these Dobermans? I don't think anybody would try anything! True I guess! She probably had at least one of them trained to do something on command!

 

[Rits]

The woman breeder who we got our first Doberman from lived in the same town. We actually got to be good friends and I was one of the few people allowed on her property and in her whole home.

She never allow anyone inside, and I think even on the property, when there was a litter on the ground. One time she invited me to come in to take a peek at puppies when they were very young and still nursing. Just as a friendly courtesy because she knew me and she knew I would love to see that. But it was one time and we were very cautious about moving slowly and not getting too close so as not to disturb the mother.

When someone would come see a puppy for sale I don't think she let them in the back where all the dogs were. She would bring them out and show them in her living room. So yeah I think it is a given that their home can be off limits. After all, it is their home.

I remember one time asking her if she was afraid being out there alone. She was divorced and kind of off the beaten path. She said, Come on! With all these Dobermans? I don't think anybody would try anything! True I guess! She probably had at least one of them trained to do something on command!

Yea when they are very tiny it is a BIG risk with possible contagions being brought in on shoes or from home. Any visitors are often very few prior to pick up except on very special circumstances and usually - take off your shoes, wash your hands, all dogs are vaccinated at home? etc. good biosecurity measures are taken place. And like you mentioned, momma can get stressed with visitors, especially a doberman momma!

I did read from a few years ago that her health is declining. I don't know her personally but have heard nothing but good things and she's been awarded and acknowledged a number of times by the breed club. I wonder if it was just bad timing and time for kennels to be cleaned or possible that hired assistance wasn't doing their job like she thought.