Are Schutzhund and Therapy Dog Training Incompatible?

[Quee]

Hello fellow forum members!

I have a question about training - has anyone trained their Dobe for both Schutzhund competition and as a therapy/educational dog? I'm asking because I'm seriously considering having my Dobe Pippi do both - she's got the potential to do very well in Schutzhund, but is also so sweet and docile around children, that I'm considering doing both with her.

On the surface it may seem odd - having a dog train in Schutzhund - a portion of which involves controlled attacks under specific scenarios - and also to work with children and the disabled, but my Dobe seems to have both activities in her blood - the Schutzhund work is intense and really consumes a lot of her energy (and mine!), where the therapy training/work seems to be just pure enjoyment for her.

If anyone has any thoughts on or experience with this we'd really appreciate it!

 

[Rits]

I think TDI allows dogs to volunteer that are in bite sports but I do know Delta Society does NOT, unfortunately. I think it's great you are wanting to get out there and get involved with things with Pippi!

NOTE:

​

Dogs that have been trained to aggressively protect and/or have been encouraged to bite, even if it is a component of a dog sport (e.g., bite work that is part of Schutzhund or Hunting activities) ​

MAY NOT​

be Pet Partners. Animals that have a previous bite history or have killed another animal ​

MAY NOT ​

be a Pet Partners.​

​

http://www.deltasociety.org/page.aspx?pid=262
http://tdi-dog.org/HowToJoin.aspx?Page=Testing+Requirements

 

[Ingrid H]

I'm not really experienced in either form of training but wouldn't think the two would be in conflict. Schutzhund or ring sports are very disciplined activities that make for a well trained, sociable and stable dog. Seems to me that those are qualities you'd want to see in a therapy dog as well.

Now this may just be a myth, but I have heard that dobermans are not given much opportunity to be guide dogs for the blind because they may "protect" their owners from EMTs in the case of an accident. I can sort of see the potential for that happening with an untrained doberman, but if a doberman made it that far in training.... It's not going to happen.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Actually it is Therapy Dog Internationl that does not allow a dog that has done bite work to get a TDI - Delta does or at least the last time I checked did.

This stems from a complete misunderstanding all the way around of what Bite sports is actually all about. I would far rather see a Schutzhund dog in therapy than someone's couch potatoe who is a big questions mark. With a working dog you have to know that dog's strengths and weaknesses now to train around it to bring out the best in the dog and you learn real quick if the dog can hanlde the pressure or not.

They are temperament tested all along the way, have to prove that they can follow commands, have self control, respond to their handler even under direct applied stress. Unless you have a loose cannon at the end of the leash these dogs are the safest around.

If you think you are going to do both then you need to do therapy FIRST then you dont' have to worry about it. Schutzhund training is hard and just thinking about it is a long cry from getting out in the heat, rain, snow etc laying tracks, training to a high level of obedience and protection.

 

[Rits]

Actually it is Therapy Dog Internationl that does not allow a dog that has done bite work to get a TDI - Delta does or at least the last time I checked did.

I didn't see anywhere on their website so thanks for letting us know! Delta does not anymore, I pulled the quote from Delta Society's website. Thank you for your informative opinions on the matter too.

 

[Dobs4ever]

Thank for updateing me - I did not know Delta had changed. Shows you what they know abut trained dogs.

To add: in case it was not clear I meant at the HUMAN end of the leash is the loose canon.

 

[Doberman Gang]

Zeke and Redman both have there TDI's and just recently got there BH's so I would get there TDI first then work on schutzhund. Therapy Dog International doesn't ask you if you are competing in any bite sports when you turn in your visit info. Truthfully I don't think they are sitting around thinking about what dogs may suddenly start a bite sport. You know your dog best so if you know your dog has a stable temperament and you have your TDI going on visits even after training schutzhund should not be an issue. You dog will probably be better off from the extra obedience training and confidence they get from doing schurzhund.

 

[Quee]

Thank you everyone! I really think that not only does she have the temperament for both, but she's the kind of dog that needs different challenges in training to keep her well-balanced and mentally exercised. She truly amazes me around kids, and has a higher tolerance for their activeness, shrieks, and general mayhem than I do. Long after I can't take any more she's still loving all of the attention and love that she gets from the kiddies.

She also loves to learn new commands, never forgets one once she's learned it, and her favorite pasttime besides interacting with people of all ages, seems to be learning new things or overpowering me in tug-of-war. I have no doubt she'll be great at bite work!

I've heard concern from one of our trainers about doing both therapy and Schutzhund training, but I think it's actually completmentary since Schutzhund is all about training your dog to stay under control at all times under all kinds of situations. I would think that Schutzhund dogs are more likely to do well training as therapy dogs since the successful ones I've seen are so very well controlled and mindful of their handlers commands (that's assuming the dogs generally do well around children).

 

[Dobs4ever]

Quee - the concern might come from a complete misunderstanding of what each situation requires. Just because a dog is hot to trot and all about working does not mean that they can't also be about socializing and being friendly not to mention calm. They are capable of learning how to respond to each situation. Never underestimate the ability of this versitile breed.

To add: So go have fun and enjoy what you want. If it does not work out then at least you tried and you will always feel better about trying that wishing. JMHO

 

[DoogaDoberman]

Zeke and Redman both have there TDI's and just recently got there BH's so I would get there TDI first then work on schutzhund. Therapy Dog International doesn't ask you if you are competing in any bite sports when you turn in your visit info. Truthfully I don't think they are sitting around thinking about what dogs may suddenly start a bite sport. You know your dog best so if you know your dog has a stable temperament and you have your TDI going on visits even after training schutzhund should not be an issue. You dog will probably be better off from the extra obedience training and confidence they get from doing schurzhund.

That’s awesome did you ever get titled in bitework or TDI?

 

[DoogaDoberman]

Thank you everyone! I really think that not only does she have the temperament for both, but she's the kind of dog that needs different challenges in training to keep her well-balanced and mentally exercised. She truly amazes me around kids, and has a higher tolerance for their activeness, shrieks, and general mayhem than I do. Long after I can't take any more she's still loving all of the attention and love that she gets from the kiddies.

She also loves to learn new commands, never forgets one once she's learned it, and her favorite pasttime besides interacting with people of all ages, seems to be learning new things or overpowering me in tug-of-war. I have no doubt she'll be great at bite work!

I've heard concern from one of our trainers about doing both therapy and Schutzhund training, but I think it's actually completmentary since Schutzhund is all about training your dog to stay under control at all times under all kinds of situations. I would think that Schutzhund dogs are more likely to do well training as therapy dogs since the successful ones I've seen are so very well controlled and mindful of their handlers commands (that's assuming the dogs generally do well around children).

Did you ever get in bitework and Therapy Dog work?

 

[Doberman Gang]

Did you ever get in bitework and Therapy Dog work?

This from 12 years ago, but both dogs got there TDI title and trained and competed in IPO. Although Therapy dog programs will not let dogs trained I’m bitework go on outings. The obedience to do IPO or now what is called IGP, is at the highest level. Most working dogs would rather be working than doing therapy.

 

[BG1]

Considering Therapy Dog after Service dog training, if possible. Dont need protection training beyond "Level One" (a scary bark on command) by a local LEO/MIL k9 training place as Bonnie is naturally watchful and a good barker.

I'd train for the bark as needed but not claim certificate to avoid a bureaucratic issue later.

Seems to me the temperament screen for BH (or something like it) is the first "proof" for any dog to be trusted with the vulnerable, and

Agree that dogs that go thru IGP would (seem to me to) have a far better proof of reliable behavior and trainer control than some random mutt that like has nothing on file.

But I'd need to know more about best practices for therapy dog training in current use. Still a noob on our first dobe now at 16 months.

 

[DoogaDoberman]

This from 12 years ago, but both dogs got there TDI title and trained and competed in IPO. Although Therapy dog programs will not let dogs trained I’m bitework go on outings. The obedience to do IPO or now what is called IGP, is at the highest level. Most working dogs would rather be working than doing therapy.

So you can’t do therapy dogs international and IGP?

 

[Doberman Gang]

So you can’t do therapy dogs international and IGP?

No, not if they find out you do IGP. You won’t be allowed to go on visits. Unless they changed the rules since then.

 

[Katyusharocket]

No, not if they find out you do IGP. You won’t be allowed to go on visits. Unless they changed the rules since then.

I think they did. And it might depend on which therapy dog umbrella you're under. Katyusha and I are with Alliance of Therapy dogs, and I never read that rule with them. There is also Therapy Dogs International, their rules may be different.

Considering Therapy Dog after Service dog training, if possible.

just speaking from our experience with the Alliance of Therapy Dogs, they don't require any formal training, or anything else, really, to become a therapy dog. Your dog just has to be trained enough beforehand to pass their test, which is basically CGC with a few other add-ons, like a person walking by with an unsteady gait. Their test is the only test that matters to them. After the test we were observed/evaluated during 3 different outings, 2 of which were required to be in a medical facility. Then we were on our own, if we wanted to be. I don't see anything wrong with trying both. But I would want to make sure my dog was liking the things I would be asking it to do.

The AKC really doesn't get involved with it, either. Your therapy dog group tracks your therapy events and after 10 the AKC will give Therapy Dog Novice title, I think to drop the novice it's 50 events. They will, however, when applying for the novice title, give you CGC for $10 extra bucks if you don't already have that.