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Are Males Rehomed More Often?

Discussion in 'Rescue & Adoption' started by Ingrid H, Apr 13, 2013.

  1. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    "Yes apbt are genetically predispositioned to be dog aggresive. This is from the decades of breeding to be gladiator dogs. It has nothing to do with testosterone as there was very famous female pit fighters. I dont think altering a dog will have any impact on generations of breeding for thst trait. "

    This is the very first post from that thread.
  2. Gelcoater

    Gelcoater Expert ThreadCrapper $ Premium Subscriber $ Hot Topics Subscriber

    Matt,I've known many a pit bull over the years.Some are dog aggressive some aren't.Im tending to for the most part agree with dhorner8 about this.Sure your going to find some are driven to fight,probably bred in.
    You're also going to find many that don't want to.
    Their great ability to fight well IMO stems from the fact they are very strong dogs,physically.Also a "never give up" attitude.Combine the two and you get a superior fighter.
    I know I shared my experience with Daisy and the blue nose at the end of the street here at one point.That pit(a female) was a year older than Daisy when they met,she gave Daisy her belly!Had zero interest in being alpha or fighting,she wanted what Daisy wanted...to get those squirrels!!!
    My niece also has 2 pits,both females.Never a fight.They camp often with several families,so several pits,a GSD,and several mix breeds.Their pits have never been in a fight.
    Another example,my friend Chris.His pit is owned by their little fluff ball dog,it could lay waste to that little turd any time it chose.It doesn't though.
    I firmly believe that while genetics plays a part,a bigger role is how the dog is raised and how established the owner is as a pack leader in the dogs mind.
  3. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    While some may not be aggressive Thats fine, but also not what I'm referring to.

    Some Dobermans aren't male aggressive. That doesn't mean we can say it doesn't exist.

    I'm not talking about pit bulls being fighting dogs. I brought that up for a bit and I wish I didn't. I'm talking about them being dog aggressive which according to an overwhelming amount of people is an issue.

    Including the members on the Pit bull forum I joined to ask about.
    They were all I agreement that pit bulls have the tendency to be dog aggressive.

    I love pits, it's not about that. My only issue is saying dog aggression or male aggression is a testosterone issue or a training issue.
    It's a genetic predisposition compounded by breeding male aggressive dogs, which is why so many have issues with two males. There is also science behind this. I'm not just making this stuff up. Not to mention our own breed club agrees this is a very risk situation. Neutered or not trained or not.

    I'm derailing this thread quite a bit so I am going to create a new one so this one doesn't get sidetracked. T minus 10 minutes.
  4. dh8

    dh8 Hot Topics Subscriber

    I've worked in shelters and with people training privately for over 20 yrs. the shelters ranged from one handling over 40,000 animals a year on down. The adoptions I have handled directly in shelter work come in at over 6,400 and those I've rescued, rehab'd and rehomed privately come in at almost 1,000 now. My specialty is the difficult dogs dumped for behavior issues either caused or allowed to flourish by inactivity or the wrong handling. There isn't much research I haven't done. My dogs up until a few years ago (when I moved to AK and stopped shelter work because of my location) have always been the ones others were afraid to touch and deemed unsalvageable - mostly pits, Doberman and rottis.
    Again your example is not relevant to this case. The DPCA info is very general and given for all Dobermans. Most people interested enough to read through DPCA are looking to breed or show...and that means what? Intact boys and girls. They have ZERO info on the effects of spaying or neutering in your example.
    A forum is not "research" by anyone's thinking. You can get opinions there but that's as much weight as that gets.
    It is training, it is socialization and it is spay/neuter...unless you're right and thousands of dog trainers and vets specializing in dog on dog aggression are all ripping off the public because everything is due to genetics. You have also yet to explain how Dobermans are supposedly bred for male on male aggression and they're so specific in that aggression it's mostly with other Dobermans and thus Doberlicious should be too scared to adopt a neutered Doberman pup even though his dog is fine with other males including the small neutered one in his home.
    Why do you refuse to address anything specific about this situation but want to continue to fight about it?
  5. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    I don't see how I am not answering your questions.

    These lengthy posts are filled with knowledge that I worry is going unnoticed.

    You obviously have knowledge in this subject so I will go ahead and ask you a couple questions before I answer yours.

    If male Doberman aggression is not an issue why does no reputable rescue adopt out males to other male households? That's substantial is it not?

    Why do you consider DPCA to be only for breeders and those interested in showing????
    It is OUR breed club designed around the Doberman, and helping Doberman owners. Not just breeders. If you haven't read the site I suggest you do, it is filled with training info.

    Where have I said trainers are screwing over people? I never did, I am specifically mentioning Dobermans, not any other dog.
    Pit bulls were brought in by your original post.

    Do you have research on how neutering affects dog aggression? Specifically inherited male aggression with Dobermans?

    Now on to your question.

    Dobermans were never bred for male aggression. It is an undesired trait, no one can doubt that.
    One that has been compounded on years of line breeding. (For the record I don't disagree with linebreeding)
    It is an undesired trait which has transferred to so many Dobermans, that no reputable breeder or rescue will place a male doberman in another male household. Again I find this very substantial.

    I honestly can not find a single other person, article, or research that supports your claims on neutering and training.

    I don't know why you think I am refusing to address anything specific. I am clearly responding about dog aggression with adequate proof that its a problem. Any dog owner with two male Dobermans should worry or a male Doberman and another male dog. This isn't something people made up one night, it is based off of experience from thousands of people.
    I also don't want to fight. I consider this a debate, but if it is a "fight" I want no part of it. So I'll leave this post at that.

    Discussing these things is incredibly valuable for a new owner looking to add another male. My only hope is that they read this and re think.
  6. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    I'm treading in carefully because I admit I have zero experience with two males. ZERO. Never had them. And Never will. :) I was told by my first Doberman's breeder that if I ever wanted a second one (I had a male) to get a female. I had no clue about any of this but when she said that they would be like 'an old married couple' it made perfect sense to me. Even without researching things, if things make sense to me and my gut tells me something, I will believe it. That may not be right but I've lived long enough to say that most of the time, it has been. :)

    For me, the quotes above make perfect sense. Right or wrong, it's what I believe too. Testosterone plays an important part and even Cesar Millan has said that.

    AND that said, I STILL will stick with a male and a female in my home. I don't even want two neutered males. I don't know if I believe Dobs are bred to be male (or even DOG)aggressive as I have heard Pits are. But (and, boy, I'm sticking my neck out here :bag:) I really believe that the male species of ANY kind is just more aggressive and tends to fight. Even humans. It's in the jeans! :lmao: There, I said it. :D

    When my old neighbor had a mare and we carefully picked out two geldings for her from the guy I bought my Appaloosa's from, I thought it was all cool. Driving the geldings to her home, the guy shocks me with, " Well, I hope she doesn't have a problem with the two gelding fighting for the mare." :eek::eek::eek: WHAT? I can't tell you how surprised I was to hear that! They were gelded! Right? So WTH? He told me it doesn't matter. They 'remember'............or something like that. Whatever he said, I don't remember, but the gist of it was that even gelded they still feel that territorial need.

    Well, guess what? Those two gelding fought over that mare ALL the time and one of them got beat up regularly until she had to re-home one! That's testosterone for ya.

    That's my two cents......or 10. :)
  7. dh8

    dh8 Hot Topics Subscriber

    It is NOT possible to breed for behavior. You can breed for physical traits, period. The rest (after hormones for males and females) is environment. Breeders will have horrible times with males because they are testosterone loaded with no release 99% of the time. Really, really excellent trainers can work with this but there aren't that many people at that level and with the time it takes to constantly work against fuel the animals keep pumping out.

    If the testosterone driven behavior is allowed to continue unaddressed before neutering; it becomes a learned behavior. All learned behaviors can be retrained if the owner has the expertise or their ego allows them to seek help. For those whose ego doesn't permit them to seek the help of someone with more expertise in training; they proclaim the entire breed to have the same problem. I hit this adamant declaration from adopters at least once a week with regard to all different breeds. I'd walk out dogs disproving their theories and always be accused of a set up, even though I had no knowledge they were coming in or what their theories would be.

    I can retrain any dog and most cats. It's done by retraining the owners. Cesar is 100%+ correct in saying people are harder to train than other animals. I don't have horse expertise so I would seek a behavior expert for horses and retrain. Being in the business for years doesn't mean anyone has the education for higher level training or the time to devote to it in their business. The fact that there are numerous examples of people with multi-male packs of dogs in all different breeds including dobis and pits tells you people can train at that level.

    Human males who pump up on added testosterone can have bad aggression issues. It's why young men are far more likely to fight than older men whose testosterone has waned. As I don't know of any human neutered males who have had testosterone removed altogether, we can't use that as anything but a joke with no bearing on the issue being discussed.

    I can't believe this group continues to believe these myths. You can't tell me people in this group have no experience with well trained successful packs that include mire than 1 male. if Doberlicious' male dobi had this mythical inbred male on male aggression; why hasn't he attacked and killed the male minpin in his home? 1. Testosterone has been removed 2. Doberlicious is a good pack trainer.

    Come on people! A lot of people here follow Cesar and Cesar says anyone can do it. All of a sudden he doesn't know what he's talking about? His business is training people to work with dogs. Your breeder's business is selling dogs and trying to make certain they don't get any returns, regardless of the reason...and most often the reason is failure to train properly. The last thing a breeder wants back is a male because even neutered they will have problems with the intact males they use for breeding-the behavior being driven by the intact males. It costs a breeder more money to try to retrain a dog that had a poor owner/trainer than it does for them to sell untrained puppies. It doesn't make them bad people but their business is to sell puppies, not train people and dogs.

    There's even the little person on tv with a pack of 6 or so pits. He takes in the dogs they can't find good homes for (many due to behavior problems) and trains them into his pack which includes an intact male (because he almost died from the anesthesia when they went to neuter him). The guy would have a very hard time physically controlling one pit, let alone a pack, so he must have trained them and controls them from energy/verbal commands. Did he have magical luck in getting the only male pits on earth who can get along with other males? No more than I took all the good dogs for myself when working in shelters. No more than any of my animal rescue friends did-including my friend with the pit pack.
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