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Are Males Rehomed More Often?

Discussion in 'Rescue & Adoption' started by Ingrid H, Apr 13, 2013.

  1. dh8

    dh8 Hot Topics Subscriber

    Any dogs will work out together if the dogs respect the human as the leader and no one is outwardly super dog aggressive on rescue or adoption. If you were talking a couple of intact males, that might be a different story. Your dog has no issues with your male minpin or other dogs he meets so there's no reason to expect him to have issues with this male dog.

    Including what my husband and I did before we married, we adopted and put together male dogs of all breeds from pits to dobis to German bred Belgian Malinois and numerous mixed breeds. Even a poor introduction doesn't make a difference in the long run. We redirected and did the side by side walks moving closer as we went. The power of the walk and positive group training has never failed us in having harmony at home.

    My males are now good buds but Duke was terrified of large dogs and males according to the shelter. Duke warned Teddy off once or twice with a growl and one air snap (which we immediately corrected) while they were getting used to each other and Duke adjusted to his new and very different home. Teddy got corrections when he wasn't respectful also. It took a few weeks but they are all great together. We watched for any negative signs (like too much focus or possession of toys)when they played together corrected or redirected attention as needed. Duke was 5yrs+ on adoption and so stressed from the shelter he was in he couldn't keep any weight on him. You saw every bone in his spine and he had big pressure sores on both hips.


    I've always tended to adopt male dogs as people have such ridiculous preconceived ideas about them and they are euthanized at higher rates than females. I've had 3 male dobis at one time and zero compatibility issues, along with a female pitbull. All adopted as adults and from very different and difficult situations. We expect them to get along and respect our wishes as leader, then did training and exercise in a positive group way to make that come across.

    Given that all dogs are neutered, this dog is so young and your dogs are well trained, socialized and respect you as the leader, there should be no reason on earth it doesn't work out well. I'd go take him in a NY minute and be committed. There will be some training and slight adjustments for all as is usual when a new family member comes home but no more than you'd have on any purchase or adoption over time. The same training and corrections you did for your dogs is the same you'd do for a brand new pup is the same you'd do if you adopted a 10yr old or this young dog you're looking at.

    Awesome that you're looking outside your comfort zone to see if this will work out for you, your dogs and this poor dog! I'd take both your dogs to the shelter and see how they react before projecting anything negative onto what may be a super positive situation. Good luck and let us know what happens!
     
  2. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    I'm sorry I can't agree with you there.

    Dobes are predisposed to have male on male aggression.

    It's not something you can train in or out, it's genetics. Some males have it, some don't.
    Not a good idea to have two dudes, unless you are willing to crate and rotate once they reach that age.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  3. Ingrid H

    Ingrid H Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I live in an area of the US where spay/neuter is extremely common and still don't see females being rehomed in the classified ads. There is a 6 month old boy available right now :(
     
    • Like Like x 1
  4. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    When I see these ads for females, they are normally on craigslist for sub 24 hours.

    People pick these girls up as fast as they can.
    If I don't get my inquiry in within 5 minutes of the original posting I might as well kick rocks, because my chances are greatly diminished.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  5. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Omg, you mean they are picked up for breeding???? Ugh, my god, that makes me ill.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  6. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    All I am really doing is guessing here, and I don't have any facts to back it up.

    I just find it super odd that males stay on craigslist for months, same with spayed females.

    But intact bitches are gone in minutes. To me that says only one thing.
    Just an opinion based off what I see,
     
  7. MyBuddy

    MyBuddy Moderator Hot Topics Subscriber

    Well........if it walks like a Duck! I'd say that's a good assumption.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Ingrid H

    Ingrid H Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I don't even see spayed females of any age being rehomed. Where I live, people gasp at the sight of balls on a dog or even nipples on a bitch. But I never see females for sale spayed or not.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  9. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    2 dobermans

    They are everywhere, unfortunately.

    I will say the amount of total pet listings on Maine's craigslist is much less then here.
     
  10. Ingrid H

    Ingrid H Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    I guess I'm lucky to live in a place where we really don't have a problem with unwanted litters of puppies. It wasn't luck though. It was years of education, free spay/neuter clinics, and pressure from the vets.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    The world is turning around, slowly but surely.

    I imagine one day it will be something similar throughout the country.

    Or I can at least hope.
     
  12. dh8

    dh8 Hot Topics Subscriber

    I've done loads of shelter and rescue work and find a few myths never seem to go away. One of the top 3 is females are better with families and kids.

    I disagree with posts of people claiming males dobis are bred to have male on male aggression or they just won't get along. Intact males will very likely have issues because they're flooded with testosterone without release, not because they're bred to hate other males.

    Doberlicious's dog is well socialized and great with his other socialized neutered dog. The dog he's looking at is a young dog, also neutered. I would say something very different if we were talking about all intact males, if his existing dogs didn't get along or if they had socialization issues with other animals They don't. There is no reason on earth not to see how the dogs get along.

    This thinking isn't different than people who claim pit bulls are bred to fight so you can't have a pit bull with other animals or they aren't safe around kids. My friend has 4 pits now and they are super loving, well behaved dogs. All taken as adult rescues. 3 were great off the bat together. One needed training badly because he was insecure and dominant. He could have been dangerous if left with someone who didn't train and socialize him in an appropriate manner. he could easily have been left to rotate his life in cages but he was lucky to get someone who knew how to work with his specific issues.

    If you have to rotate your dogs in cages you don't have control over your existing dogs or the new dog. If we don't want our dogs to do something, we train them until we succeed. If you can't trust your dog to behave and follow your directions because another male dog is around, your dog isn't fully trained.

    The pup Doberlicious is looking at is too young to have strong issues on anything. Their existing dogs have no issues and are great with each other and other dogs. You don't get a more likely scenario for a great adoption fit than this.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  13. Ingrid H

    Ingrid H Hot Topics Subscriber $ Forum Donor $

    We've gone so far here in New England that we are actually importing dogs and puppies from other parts of the US and from abroad to meet the demand for pets. Of course there are BYBs, accidental litters, and people who can't handle the pets they got. But our local shelter only has an average of about 4 dogs on any given day.
     
  14. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    Sorry but i have to disagree here.

    More common then not dobes are male aggressive. With most of them developing it later in life.
    Some dogs may be ok, look at Max Hawk's dogs. They do fine.

    Unfortunately that is not the norm though.
    In the sort time i have been in the breed, almost every breeder, every owner i have spoke with has had problems with male on male aggression.


    Is not a training thing.

    My breeder can't let her two males even look at each other without a fight starting, and one of them is neutered...

    Put bulls are also dog aggressive.
    This is a genetic predisposition to having same sex, or dog aggression.

    While not every dog will have it, that's playing with a lot of fire.

    It's just not safe to say training can fix all of this when it won't.

    What happens when a new owner buys another male and 2 years later they are fighting non stop. It's very holy frowned upon.

    It can be done, just like with litter mates, but you are asking for trouble and in some time in your life the chances of a crate and rotate scenario are high.
     
  15. dh8

    dh8 Hot Topics Subscriber

    Your breeder can't let 2 males look at each other because at least one is flooded with testosterone and surrounded by breeding females but unable to do anything about it. That one is eager to fight for mating rights and the other dog knows it. I said intact males would be a problem and generally they are...and not only with other males. That is NOT the case here. Even if litter mates were left intact there would be problems fueled by unspent testosterone.

    I understand many people here talk from a breeding and show perspective where they will leave the males intact as an imperative and work around any other issues as best they can. Neutered males really can and do get along just fine and it's even easier if they respect and obey their owner.

    I had 3 neutered male Dobermans for years and zero issues. I have owned pits with other dogs and zero issues. My friend has 4 pits and zero issues. Numerous people have pit packs and groups of dogs including male Dobermans without issue. Other people on this site have pits and dobis and I haven't seen anyone posting about fights in their home.

    Do you really believe Dobermans are breed specific in their supposed inbred male on male aggression? How would someone even begin to breed male on male breed specific aggression? Flash pictures and breed the males that react badly to the male Doberman pictures? If Doberlicious left their dogs intact or the new one would be intact, I would have said no way.

    Without the unspent testosterone fueling crazy aggression, there is no eruption now or in the future. Just like with males of any other species. Give a man too much testosterone and they will become aggressive and fight at the drop of a dime. Take away the testosterone flood and you take the fuel for fighting away. That drive doesn't magically erupt years later unless you put the testosterone flood back. You don't have fire without fuel.

    I also stand by if you aren't able to control your dogs and stop them from attacking another dog; you aren't in control of your dogs. It is that simple and that difficult. Your dogs either respect you and obey even if they want to do something else or they don't. If they don't, they do whatever they please like follow their pent up testosterone (if intact) and go after other dogs when the testosterone surges.

    Pit bulls aren't any more dog aggressive by nature than any other species. That thinking went out 10+ years ago. Pits are trained to fight because they have the power to last in a fight. Intact male pits are used because they have the testosterone to fuel the aggression. Spayed and neutered or young dogs only are used as bait when they force the intact dogs into fight training. The intact fighters get a good workout on the altered dog but there isn't much risk of them being seriously injured. Also, Pits can be trained to fight only because they are so loyal they are willing to do anything for their owners. It is not a love of fighting or anything inbred besides size/muscle and a devotion to please their owners that makes Pits targets for fighting rings.

    Once any dog has been trained to fight-either as the fighter or by being used as bait-it would not be for the average person or even a good dog person to rehab them but it can be done in many cases.

    Doberlicious' male dobi gets along fine with his male min pin and other dogs, including any males he meets. He is obedient and socialized without any fuel to spark a fight. Unless someone is going to sneak in and pump the dogs with testosterone, they will not "snap" to fighting because there is no fuel to do it. The new dog is young and I believe already neutered. Good adoption situations really don't get any better than this.
     
  16. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    I understand that it can work out.
    I'm happy your dogs get along well, I wouldn't want it any other way.


    The facts are, and have been for decades that Dobermans are genetically disposed to male on male aggression. As with a lot of working breeds.
    Its not a question of if, more of a question of when. With male dobes developing this trait later on in life.

    If this were a problem of lack of control or training you would hear more about females being equally same sex aggressive.

    Its a genetic trait, and always has been. I think it is very dangerous to say this stuff, and someone were to see this and get two males.
    It also has nothing to do with being neutered or not.
    While that may enhance the fight, or initiate one more so the dog aggression is still there, because it was placed there by nature.

    There are plenty of very knowledgeable breeders, and trainers that can not keep two males together. Neutered or not, and a quick Google search on that will provide plenty of first hand experiences with male on male aggression.

    I also suggest checking out some pitbull articles or forums on the subject. Its not an idea of the past, because it is still a common occurrence.

    Pit bulls were bred to fight due to their strength, dog aggression. That's straight from pit bull owners. They don't even consider dog aggression a fault!!
    That's how common it is in their breed.

    Testosterone plays a big factor in how quick things like this escalate, but it is minor when in comparison to the real problem at hand.

    Like I said, I am happy it has worked out for you and other members.
    I would love to have another male, they are big lovers much more so than the girls.
    I just cant possibly recommend that to anyone. Especially considering there is already proven science on the subject. (There are a lot of research studies you can purchase if you google canine same sex aggression)

    Now controlling a dog fight, or avoiding it in the first place is a different issue.
    If you know your dobes are male aggressive, you have to be diligent on keeping them separate. ITs absolutely your fault if they get in a fight at this point. Although it is not a training thing, you cant train your same sex aggressive dog not to fight the dog he has already fought.
     
  17. dh8

    dh8 Hot Topics Subscriber

    Pit bulls were not trained to fight because of a genetic dog aggression. It is because of strength and unparalleled desire to please their owners at any cost to themselves that made them fighting dog candidates. Pitbulls having inbred dog aggression didn't come from any pitbull owners who know anything about the breed.

    Females of any breed aren't noted for fights and aggression because they don't have testosterone to fuel the fights. Being a working breed or not has nothing to do with aggression. Testosterone isn't a minor factor; it is the major factor. It's why intact males are the dogs used for fighting-no matter what breeds they are fighting.

    your only example was the opposite of what I recommended. You talked about an intact male, surrounded by breeding females he couldn't touch and yes that will definitely cause aggression and tension because he can't release his testosterone. That is the main reason, not a minor one. Allow that to occur over time and it becomes a learned behavior that may not stop even when you remove testosterone but that still doesn't make it a genetic issue. It's a training issue once you have removed the chemical fuel for the problem.

    You can google dog sex aggression and will find loads of articles that speak to the problems caused by intact males flooded with testosterone. You will also find a boatload of articles detailing how to train your dog when aggression issues arise, even when you choose not to spay/neuter. Numerous trainers specialize in dog aggression issues. Do you believe they're all selling snake oil? Or they will exclude Dobermans and Pits if you call for help? This all shows training can fix the problem, as I've said. It's rare that an owner whose dog has developed these issues can solve it on their own because their actions have helped create the problem but it is doable.

    None of what you suggest pertains to the situation Doberlicious described. Two neutered males, well socialized and well behaved and bringing a young neutered male into the mix. Your situations begin with intact males and poorly trained or socialized dogs with aggression issues. Doberlicious is in a completely different situation from your scenarios. They have had 2 males together for at least a year or so without issue. No dog on dog or male on male aggression, no testosterone flooded frustrated dogs. Just neutered, well socialized and trained dogs without behavior issues (aggression or otherwise) and thinking of adding a neutered pup into the mix. You really don't get better adoption possibilities that that.
     
  18. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    Im sure it may be different for other breeds, and that some may have dog aggression strictly based off of testosterone.

    That's not the case!! Seriously do some research here. A quick google search pulls up occasion, after occasion, after occasion of male dog fights. Regardless of whether or not they are surrounded by breeding bitches.

    this quote is directly pulled from our breed club the DPCA, a group made up of possibly the most well informed people on Dobermans in the US.

    Like I said, I am really glad that things have worked out for everyone on this board with males living in the same house, the facts are that this is more of a rare occurrence than a common one.

    "Responsible breeders don't sell male Doberman puppies to homes that already have male dogs. Mature Doberman males are often same sex aggressive. While neutering may curb this problem, it doesn't always. A common reason that male Dobermans are turned into rescues around the age of 18-24 months is that they no longer tolerate sharing their living space with another male dog, and the owners were never advised this might be an issue."

    I think it is absolutely irresponsible to say that two males can successfully be raised together if they are neutered and trained well.
    I would hate for someone to read this, do that, and have to rehome a dog due to same sex aggression.

    This isn't a myth. Both the DPCA, and pitbull forums are validating this. Im not saying testosterone has nothing to do with it. It does to an extent.

    But you also don't hear about every other dog breed struggling with male aggression because of testosterone, yet it is a common occurrence to hear about it with Dobermans.
     
  19. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    BTW the neutered dog is the one initiating the fights, not the other way around. It has also happened without any bitches being in season.

    My point being it happens regardless. Its not training, its not socialization, and its not only testosterone.

    All of those things by themselves can cause aggression, but for what we are talking about that has nothing to do with it.
     
  20. DocReverto

    DocReverto Formerly CRD

    I put an inquiry in at a pitbull forum. I know very little other than what I have researched on pits, so I am interested to hear there response.

    Ill let you know.
     

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