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12 Tips on "Red Flags" when Looking at Dog Breeders

Discussion in 'Doberman Breeders' started by DobieLvr, Mar 22, 2009.

  1. apbtmom76

    apbtmom76 Guest

    jst I am so sorry about your GSD. An dI'm glad she had you, just like I am glad that Penny is with us as anyone else would have put her down.

    A good breeder should stand by their word no matter what.
  2. Velmadobe

    Velmadobe New Member

    You are looking at it from a purely emotional state: and I'm sorry for what you went through - I'm looking at it as a breeder, I personally would look at each situation independently and figure out what was fair for that situation - regardless of how I felt about the owner. You don't have to like my responses - but for the most part any health guarantee I have ever seen was mostly worthless if the breeder was determined to stick to it word for word.

    And what is a guarantee for life? What the heck does that mean? That the dog is guaranteed to never die of anything? You need to be realistic - every breed has its issues and they pop up sometimes with no warning. If a breeder had to guarantee everything then there would be no way anyone would ever breed.

    What I will always do is take a dog back - if I feel it is warrented, I will refund up to the purchase price. I might want to have the dog looked at by a vet of my choosing - if necessary at my expense. I'd like to think that people who come to me for a puppy feel comfortable that I will always do what I feel is in the best interest of the dog. No, I don't give health guarantees beyond the lemon law in my state, and I explain my reasons for that to anyone who wants to know why.

    I title my dogs, I do all the health testing recommended and some extra too, they go through the parent clubs temperament testing. I look for health tested stud dogs and I gather as much information as I can about the health & longevity of their lines. Beyond that, breeding is a bit of a crap shoot - and people need to understand that. Yes there are bad breeders out there that continue to breed dogs that have produced genetic issues - I consider that irresponsible. However, just because someone does not offer health guarantees, does not make them bad breeders IMHO, it makes them realistic. Call me old fashioned, but I'm looking for a long term relationship with a breeder - not just a piece of paper saying that they will stand behind their dog IF you meet all the condiditons in the fine print.

    Here is a link to a health guarantee that is exactly what I am talking about - really read it carefully! It IMHO is a joke.
  3. deladobies

    deladobies Member

    Just because some people think a guarantee is a joke doesnt make it one!!!

    If you dont give one to your puppies parents then that is your choice, and IMHO not a wise one...

    A guarentee does more then promise a healthy dog, it shows the buyers that you are a responsible and trustworthy breeder... Not everyone you sell to is your friend and that said, not everyone knows who you are and what you are about...

    And when jst says guarenteed for life....it's simple!! You guarentee that you will be reponsible for that dog even when your "well thought out" plan goes estray.

    We all know that I have a litter right now, and I can say in ALL HONESTY I WILL TAKE BACK ANY ONE OF MY PUPPIES AT ANYTIME, NO MATTER WHAT!

    I GUARENTEE IT !!!!!!!!!!!
  4. Michele

    Michele Jr Member

    If you are not breeding to better/preserve the breed, you have no business breeding.
    • Like Like x 2
  5. deladobies

    deladobies Member

    Michele summed that one up huh!?!?!? lol
  6. apbtmom76

    apbtmom76 Guest

    She's really good at that. Good post Michele.
  7. Velmadobe

    Velmadobe New Member

    Lets just say that you can give any health guarantee you want. If someone wants to buy a puppy from you with a health guarantee then more power to them. I will hazard a guess that most people who have done their research are more intersted in buying a puppy from someone who health tested their dogs, have generations of longevity information available, and put the time and effort into titling their dogs and using stud dogs that are titled in the breeders area of interest - along with some sort of independent conformation rating - be it AKC or other accepted rating system.

    I personally would rather buy from a reputable breeder who does everything they can to produce truly excellent dogs but is honest about the health issues in the breed. In addition, a health guarantee has nothing to do with whether or not someone will take back a dog of their breeding - they are two different things. My contract requires that any dog I produce always comes back to me - there are no if ands or buts about it.

    In all honesty, I find that it is the slick internet people and greeders out there than offer the fancy health guarantees....... just what I have observed over the years and as always, JMHO.

    I am more than willing to stand behind my dogs and I don't need a piece of paper to do it - my reputation is on the line and in my sport, the world is small and word gets around about people who don't stand behind their dogs. It is a little different when you and your dogs are in the spotlight so to speak. We don't love a super healthy breed - we do the best we can with what is available to us.
    • Like Like x 1
  8. Dobejazz

    Dobejazz Novitiate

    Breeders breeding "Rare" colors and even worse charging more for them (Fawns, Blues,)
    • Like Like x 2
  9. deladobies

    deladobies Member

    Now on that one Dobejazz I think they are rare in Europe and Canada... I could be wrong, but I thought that they were...

    Stilll shouldnt charge more for them in the US though...

    again, I could be wrong in the Europe/Canada thing
  10. Dobejazz

    Dobejazz Novitiate

    Fawns and blues are not an accepted color in Europe - it would be the same as whites here in the US

    Fawns and Blues are mainly seen at greeders/BYB. Most Show and or Responsible breeders don't breed for them in the US due to poor coats and CDA.
    • Like Like x 1
  11. DobieLvr

    DobieLvr Novitiate

    Anyone that knows me at all - knows that no statement at any time was made "purely emotional"....lmao

    and by the way - the second picture, was the breeder's answer to the problem... another puppy - the suggestion that I put her down - but as you can see, I kept her. I guess I hang out with better breeders. You have a lot to learn in the breeding business.
  12. zoorox

    zoorox Notable member

    just thinking of some friends of mine who bought bad min pins. these dogs have had nothing but problems for 8 years. anyhow......the breeder said they could return the dogs for a refund......I think that is a awfull thing!!!!! I think the owner should be able to keep the dog and get a refund also! these min pins have had 2 leg hip surgeries.....and are now diabetic and blind.........but loved! the owner would never hand them over to be killed........but I fully think the breeder should hand back the money paid for them. .....and let them keep the loved pet if they wish
    • Like Like x 1
  13. MLR

    MLR Novitiate

    I agree with you Zoo. How can people be expected to part with a pet they have come to love. It's not about the money in these instances it's about settign a precident with breeders who don't do their homework ahead of time and produce pups that will likely have problems all their lives. Too bad there aren't laws for this. Unfortunately it could take years of litigation to gain anything back form the breeder as you well know.
  14. JstLovesErnie

    JstLovesErnie Notable member

    You know MLR... the breeder in this instance was great - we kept Ali until she passed away last November - and he replaced her with another puppy. Assured me that Chipper was from different bloodlines - and that was that. Chipper also came with a two year guarantee - in spite of him being a replacement puppy.

    You can't test for or plan for everything that can go wrong when you breed. The only thing you can do as a breeder - is what is right. Again - morals. If you are truly a good and honest person - you will do the right thing.

    Putting it on paper or not - people will cheat you either way if they are a dishonest person. It's like what the cops say about locks - they keep a honest person honest...
    • Like Like x 1
  15. soundgardns

    soundgardns New Member

    In addition I would like to point out that the guarantee should be longer than 1 or 2 years. This would be in context with the health issues that manifest themselves at a later stage.

    Just my thought, if a dobie dies of Cardio at age 3 or 4 I feel the breeder should take responsibility and work with the buyer to either make a refund or possible give a puppy to the buyer from the next litter.
  16. soundgardns

    soundgardns New Member

    I do agree, a good and reputable breeder would work with the buyer and either contribute the amount of the pup towards the surgery if needed, or give the buyer a pup from a litter after their beloved pet dies due to all the health issues encountered. Never should the breeder say , return the dog. That is just a cop out not to have to honor the guarentee.
    • Like Like x 1
  17. soundgardns

    soundgardns New Member

    Another red flag

    The breeder states in all the years of breeding they have never had a health issue or had to replace a pup.

    As good as a breeder is and tries to breed health dogs S...t happens and something will crop up through the many years of breeding. That is just the way life is. Any moral and ethical breeder will disclose the good and the bad.
    • Like Like x 1
  18. DLS

    DLS Notable member

    Excellent post soungardns!!! There is NO WAY any breeder {who has been involved with dogs for any length of time} can honestly say they have NEVER had any problems. I agree that if a puppy owner has ANY problem with their puppy the Breeder should be there for them, and the pup for the life of the pup. If a problem does occur, then puppy owner and breeder must work together so that all are happy and satisfied. The PUPPY TOO!!!! Big Hugz to ALL Puppies!!!!
    • Like Like x 1
  19. MLR

    MLR Novitiate

    This thread has such good information that I thought I'd bumped it back up for the new comers on the board.
  20. Denissov43

    Denissov43 Notable member

    agree MLR... alot of good info...
    I wanted to agree with Velma here on some levels... she has a very good point that I tend to agree with and believe and that is that most people who want to buy a puppy want to buy a GOOD puppy from a breeder who has history in several areas:
    1. titles, taking the time to work with their dogs to achieve titles that represent that the dogs are up to the standard of the breed in their respective areas.
    2. health testing on all the parents and all their predecessors...
    3. a health gaurantee does make one feel all warm and cozy... but...
    I agree that a health guarantee is only as good as the gaurantor.. prime example
    they are a very very well known kennel that many people also know is a huge, high end PUPPY mill...
    and they hugely sell their dogs on there ads in Dog publications and on the belief that the puppies are healthy and are well bred because they offer a health guarantee....
    which is a crock...
    now what good is it really to have a health guarantee when the dog is certain to die before it is 4 years old from some congenital defect because of the fact that the guarantee does not PROMISE a healthy dog with no inherited defects.
    I like what Velma said here... and I like what she closed with by saying "My reputation is on the line here and in my sport and my world"....
    "In all honesty, I find that it is the slick internet people and greeders out there than offer the fancy health guarantees....... just what I have observed over the years and as always, JMHO. I am more than willing to stand behind my dogs and I don't need a piece of paper to do it - my reputation is on the line and in my sport, the world is small and word gets around about people who don't stand behind their dogs. It is a little different when you and your dogs are in the spotlight so to speak. We don't love a super healthy breed - we do the best we can with what is available to us"

    I personally feel the same..I would always take my puppies back or do my damndest to make a solution to a situation that bereaved an 'owner' of one of my puppies if they died of something I had tested for and found it to be negative in my bitch... or in the stud... but to suggest that a "health guarantee" reflects an honest breeder is stretching it and naive at best...
    DIShonest 'Greeders" as Velma called them use all the 'honor and integrity' tactics too, to create an illusion of those terms to instill the 'want' in a buyer and nothing more.
    Integrity is going to be something someone earns over time and its not bought with simple tactics and 'tools' that are a standard to be considered as a guarantee of it...
    I think that is what Velma is saying here... IMHO... :2cents
    • Like Like x 1

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