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Is he “Ruined”

Curing

Member
First let me say hello! We are new to the board and I’ll be posting a introduction later, but wanted to post my questions first.

A little insight on my situation;
I’ve been getting into IPO and as I progressed decided to get a dog that could actually take me past a BH. I reached out to a local breeder and she introduced me to a dog that she had just gotten back from some people had had him from 1year up to 2 year.
According to her, he wasn’t doing what they were wanting or something along those lines so they sent him back to her.
She said that before they took him he had a lot of potential, he had nice firm full grips, obedience was coming along, and his temperament was solid.
Though she didn’t breed him, his pedigree is phenomenal as well.
When she got him back, he wouldn’t do anything for her. I obtained him pretty soon after she had gotten him back and we went on trial.

I was only supposed to trial with him for a week so I took him into my training club as soon as I had him and we assessed him. The trainer was extremely judgmental of not only him but the person I got him from (the trainer is a piece of work attitude wise and we have since left the club)
Anyway, he was very shy around everyone but was interested in the tug the first week. He absolutely knew NO obedience commands (or he suppressed any training)
Second week I brought him out again and the trainer told me to hand him off to someone more experienced during bitework, and he ended up shutting down and wouldn’t play.
It was at that point the trainer told me the dog was ruined and didn’t think he’d ever succeed and that I should take him back and get a “real dog”

I thought about this long and hard and ultimately decided to keep him. Yes I wanted to make something of myself in the sport world, but I also who heartedly believed this dog needed me and I was attached.

So overrun of when I first got the dog: he was underweight, had heartworms (being treated), very shy, and completely untrained.

Fast forwarded and I’ve probably have had him 6 months now and he’s completely changed. He’s playful and curious, loves meeting new people (still a bit shy in public), and his training is going great.
I took a very long break from protection sport and decided to solely focus on him and his confidence.
Now Ive decided to get back into it and have found another club who was excited to help me. My only concern is, WILL he ever go back to his former self or is he ruined forever? And will he always be unsure and a bit skittish?
Somethings that he jumps genuinely surprise me because overall his temperament seems pretty solid. He doesn’t react to people or dogs, but will hide at fireworks and unfamiliar things?
He also shuts down if I accidentally get to harsh with him (I own a Shepherd too and sometimes I forget he can’t take harder tones like her) and when he shuts down he doesn’t care about treats and go into avoidance.

I guess my main question is, could he come out of this with time or
Should I just expect him to never be the IPO he was supposed to be?

Also how “sensitive” are Doberman truly. I want make sure I’m not doing anything to force him to shutdown further. I’d feel terrible.
 
First let me say hello! We are new to the board and I’ll be posting a introduction later, but wanted to post my questions first.

A little insight on my situation;
I’ve been getting into IPO and as I progressed decided to get a dog that could actually take me past a BH. I reached out to a local breeder and she introduced me to a dog that she had just gotten back from some people had had him from 1year up to 2 year.
According to her, he wasn’t doing what they were wanting or something along those lines so they sent him back to her.
She said that before they took him he had a lot of potential, he had nice firm full grips, obedience was coming along, and his temperament was solid.
Though she didn’t breed him, his pedigree is phenomenal as well.
When she got him back, he wouldn’t do anything for her. I obtained him pretty soon after she had gotten him back and we went on trial.

I was only supposed to trial with him for a week so I took him into my training club as soon as I had him and we assessed him. The trainer was extremely judgmental of not only him but the person I got him from (the trainer is a piece of work attitude wise and we have since left the club)
Anyway, he was very shy around everyone but was interested in the tug the first week. He absolutely knew NO obedience commands (or he suppressed any training)
Second week I brought him out again and the trainer told me to hand him off to someone more experienced during bitework, and he ended up shutting down and wouldn’t play.
It was at that point the trainer told me the dog was ruined and didn’t think he’d ever succeed and that I should take him back and get a “real dog”

I thought about this long and hard and ultimately decided to keep him. Yes I wanted to make something of myself in the sport world, but I also who heartedly believed this dog needed me and I was attached.

So overrun of when I first got the dog: he was underweight, had heartworms (being treated), very shy, and completely untrained.

Fast forwarded and I’ve probably have had him 6 months now and he’s completely changed. He’s playful and curious, loves meeting new people (still a bit shy in public), and his training is going great.
I took a very long break from protection sport and decided to solely focus on him and his confidence.
Now Ive decided to get back into it and have found another club who was excited to help me. My only concern is, WILL he ever go back to his former self or is he ruined forever? And will he always be unsure and a bit skittish?
Somethings that he jumps genuinely surprise me because overall his temperament seems pretty solid. He doesn’t react to people or dogs, but will hide at fireworks and unfamiliar things?
He also shuts down if I accidentally get to harsh with him (I own a Shepherd too and sometimes I forget he can’t take harder tones like her) and when he shuts down he doesn’t care about treats and go into avoidance.

I guess my main question is, could he come out of this with time or
Should I just expect him to never be the IPO he was supposed to be?

Also how “sensitive” are Doberman truly. I want make sure I’m not doing anything to force him to shutdown further. I’d feel terrible.
Where in Missouri are you? My club trains in Pleasant Hill just south of Lees Summit in the KC area. I would love to see if I can help you evaluate your dog.
Being unsure and skiddish is not always a No for doing this sport but will need extra training to overcome it. Those issues definitely could have been created by the previous owner but could also just be poor temperament as well. I won’t officially give my assessment on s dog until you have been to 4-5 training sessions. That being said, a dog with true hardness and drive for the sport will show it first time out. I have told people in the past that there Dog was a good pet and to just love them and play and have fun. Then after a couple of months of just working on obedience and tracking the dogs confidence came up. She then started showing prey drive and would work on a flirt pole. Now after about 1 1/2 years she handles the whip and is biting a intermediate trial sleeve. Still can’t say if she will ever pass all 3 phases in a trial but she has come farther than anyone expected and she loves training and is having fun. She was 4 years old when she first came out. So age doesn’t necessarily matter but it will take time and work.
So if you are looking to have fun and train your dog and are ok that your dog might only be a club level dog, then I say stick to your goals and go for it.
 
Where in Missouri are you? My club trains in Pleasant Hill just south of Lees Summit in the KC area. I would love to see if I can help you evaluate your dog.
Being unsure and skiddish is not always a No for doing this sport but will need extra training to overcome it. Those issues definitely could have been created by the previous owner but could also just be poor temperament as well. I won’t officially give my assessment on s dog until you have been to 4-5 training sessions. That being said, a dog with true hardness and drive for the sport will show it first time out. I have told people in the past that there Dog was a good pet and to just love them and play and have fun. Then after a couple of months of just working on obedience and tracking the dogs confidence came up. She then started showing prey drive and would work on a flirt pole. Now after about 1 1/2 years she handles the whip and is biting a intermediate trial sleeve. Still can’t say if she will ever pass all 3 phases in a trial but she has come farther than anyone expected and she loves training and is having fun. She was 4 years old when she first came out. So age doesn’t necessarily matter but it will take time and work.
So if you are looking to have fun and train your dog and are ok that your dog might only be a club level dog, then I say stick to your goals and go for it.

Hi! Thanks so much for your reply.
I live in southwest Missouri, but used to live near StL about an hour from it and still go there form time to time.
The new club I will be attending starting this month is in Arkansas though with it being 3 hours away ill have to schedule accordingly so to not burn out.

I’ve never personally seen my guy on a sleeve, but he LOVES the tug, we play a lot and his first ever time out to the club he did play with the decoy. The second and third times he didn’t. 1. Time being when he shut down after another person tried to handle him and the next I’m unsure why he didn’t wanna play, though he does get distracted easily and in overwhelming environments he won’t engage.
It was then when the trainer said “I guess the first time was a fluke” and so on.
So he only had 3 sessions, but I felt the environment wasn’t good for him especially since the trainer didn’t seem like he even wanted to work with him.

I will say though, this is all just learning experiences for me. My Shepherd female wasn’t bred for protection and I still train her because I really enjoy the sport and training and just want to learn and be challenged. So even if he doesn’t title, just learning from him is a goal. I think he has a lot to offer.
 
South west Missouri, is that down by Joplin or are you closer to Arkansas? What club are you training with in Arkansas? Art Shaw’s club? Little Rock? There is also a club in a Fayetteville. get a hold of me if you ever are headed up towards KC. Here is my club website kcworkingdogs.com
 
South west Missouri, is that down by Joplin or are you closer to Arkansas? What club are you training with in Arkansas? Art Shaw’s club? Little Rock? There is also a club in a Fayetteville. get a hold of me if you ever are headed up towards KC. Here is my club website kcworkingdogs.com

Im closer to Arkansas, the Club is in Little Rock, not sure what its called but I know they focus on Doberman. I'm hoping it'll be a better fit for us.

I'll definitely let you know if I head up that way, may even make an effort to make a trip just for that. Would love to be a guest at your club.
 
Im closer to Arkansas, the Club is in Little Rock, not sure what its called but I know they focus on Doberman. I'm hoping it'll be a better fit for us.

I'll definitely let you know if I head up that way, may even make an effort to make a trip just for that. Would love to be a guest at your club.
Probably the Arkansas Schutzhund Club. They are hosting the AWDF National Championship at the end of March I will be there for that. They are a good group of people.
 
A trainer said the dog was 'ruined' and wouldn't help?! I guess if their focus was on more advanced training they would see it as beneath them to start with basic training but gosh... How arrogant!

I would not at all consider your dog to be 'ruined.' Maybe his spirit was broken a bit but as you've stated, working with him has already built his confidence and desire.

Have you done any basic group classes with him or just worked with him at home? If IPO turns out to not be his thing, are you open to other sports? Agility, barn hunt, rally, CGC titling, etc.?

How wonderful you're giving him a good chance and putting in the effort. Poor guy must've gone through a lot in his former home :(
 
A trainer said the dog was 'ruined' and wouldn't help?! I guess if their focus was on more advanced training they would see it as beneath them to start with basic training but gosh... How arrogant!

I would not at all consider your dog to be 'ruined.' Maybe his spirit was broken a bit but as you've stated, working with him has already built his confidence and desire.

Have you done any basic group classes with him or just worked with him at home? If IPO turns out to not be his thing, are you open to other sports? Agility, barn hunt, rally, CGC titling, etc.?

How wonderful you're giving him a good chance and putting in the effort. Poor guy must've gone through a lot in his former home :(

I'm not even sure I would even call him a trainer, but yes he was mostly focused on having club dogs. Which I get, but I was severely put off by his attitude towards the woman I got him from and towards him in general. Didn't find any reason to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" when he hadn't even settled into my home.

Most of the training we've done has been at home other then the 3 club days we did. I had actually planned to to some OB classes and Conformation Classed with him, but our sport training club up north got destroyed by the 15 ft of snow!
If IPO doesn't work for him, then I'd definitely look into another sport. I already train my shepherd female in Comp OB so that would be an easy transition. Honestly I just enjoy working with my dogs and learning with them, so I'd do any sport that they were good at just to spend that time.
 
You'll find a great deal of 'breedists' in IPO. Most look down on a dog simply because he/she is not a GSD or Mal. Many GSD owners & trainers look down upon any other breed. We have a guy in our club who put an IPO2 (will be going for IGP3 this year) on a Doggo Argentino. He'll never be more than a club level dog but still it is quite impressive. He has 2 other Doggos that are young and he is starting them in IGP as well.
 
You'll find a great deal of 'breedists' in IPO. Most look down on a dog simply because he/she is not a GSD or Mal. Many GSD owners & trainers look down upon any other breed. We have a guy in our club who put an IPO2 (will be going for IGP3 this year) on a Doggo Argentino. He'll never be more than a club level dog but still it is quite impressive. He has 2 other Doggos that are young and he is starting them in IGP as well.


Yes I’ve definitely noticed that, it actually became abundantly clear whenever the club director/trainer had more faith in my BYB Shepherd then my working bred Doberman.
Don’t get me wrong, my Shepherd isn’t anything to sneeze about in many areas, but that’s all due to training and very little to do with raw genetics.
But he judged the Doberman very quickly, judged where he came from, judged his disposition, and knew little to 0 information on him.

He said a lot of things like “Doberman are extremely sensitive, once their ruined they never come back” and “honestly you should just take him back, he’s never going to do what you want and not worth spending your time on if you ever want to be a real handler”
He’d talk about how he was ruined a lot actually, emphasizing how my Shepherd was far more likely to be titled before him.
And didn’t really care much that the genetics backing this dog are impressive. Dog really didn’t get any chance to prove himself before being thrown to the side.
 
It sounds to me like you have the drive and commitment to want to do this, so I say keep going and don’t be discouraged by the haters. I know a Doberman trainer that is very dismissive of American Dobes and I know multiple American Dobe breeders that intensely dislike Euros, so it runs both ways even within the SAME breed! I’m guessing yours is a Euro?

I do hope you get a chance to meet up with DG since you guys are pretty close by. Many of us would love to find and train with an actual European Doberman owner/trainer/handler because these dogs are soooo different from other breeds. Plus you would have an additional opinion to work with. I’m sure if you continue to work with him, he will get better.

I have heard people say Dobermans are sensitive and while I’d agree they are very “sensing” and sensitive to our moods, I’m not sure the word sensitive is always used correctly. There is a thread on here that compares Americans and Euros and one line of it I have never forgotten because it made my heart sink (lol) when I read it in the early puppy Kaiser days: “They stay confident through discipline.” I totally recommend reading through that.
 
It sounds to me like you have the drive and commitment to want to do this, so I say keep going and don’t be discouraged by the haters. I know a Doberman trainer that is very dismissive of American Dobes and I know multiple American Dobe breeders that intensely dislike Euros, so it runs both ways even within the SAME breed! I’m guessing yours is a Euro?

I do hope you get a chance to meet up with DG since you guys are pretty close by. Many of us would love to find and train with an actual European Doberman owner/trainer/handler because these dogs are soooo different from other breeds. Plus you would have an additional opinion to work with. I’m sure if you continue to work with him, he will get better.

I have heard people say Dobermans are sensitive and while I’d agree they are very “sensing” and sensitive to our moods, I’m not sure the word sensitive is always used correctly. There is a thread on here that compares Americans and Euros and one line of it I have never forgotten because it made my heart sink (lol) when I read it in the early puppy Kaiser days: “They stay confident through discipline.” I totally recommend reading through that.

Thanks for your reply!, I've definitely noticed that too. He's gotta super fun to work with and just seeing how eager he is makes me SUPER eager to get out there and into a club. I'm hoping I can get up there to where DG is pretty soon, so fingers crossed!

I'll give that thread a look, I feel lost in a lot of ways because I'm so used to German Shepherds and have no one to really mentor me at this point with my guy. So I'm just doing a lot of research and learning on my own but would LOVE having someone to go to whenever questions come up. Especially with getting into this sport more, sadly in my general location there aren't many people, and I'm always worried that I'll be judged due to my Shepherd being out of standard so I hesitate sometimes to contact certain clubs.
 

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