To crop or not to crop?

I don't care what any of you do, you are entitled to your opinion and the enjoyment of it - please grant me the same courtesy. I do 1000% agree that here in the USA it is our Kennel Club's breed standard that still chooses to call for cropping and docking to meet the breed standard in AKC (the largest most prestigeous show organization) events.
I live in the USA, I accept and agree to adhere to my parent clubs breed standard and accept their code of ethics as it pertains to issues like breeding and perpetuating white dobermans. When I accept these things I accept them in their whole, we don't get to pick and choose those standards and code of ethics we want to obey and which we don't - Thats not how the sytem works - I am so tired of being forced to justify my decision as a breeder in the USA of following the Breed Standard and adhering to the DPCA Code of Ethics. Its part of my personal Character, reputation, and desire to follow the rules and regulations set before me. I may not agree with them all, but following the rules is not usually an ala carte affair.

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Thank you Gail. I could not have said it better myself. As my husbby often tells people - he too is fine with their reputation expecailly since he is gone some. He does not worry about anyone sneaking up on me or being stupid enough to come on our property. I too am fine with that.

I am proud that DPCA took the stand a couple years ago to not open our standard to debate or interrupton, but to stand by it as it was written - cropped normal and held erect. Their fear then was that if we opened it up to interruptation and to change we might not be able to close it when we chose and suddenly it would be uncropped. The standard allows for choice. I feel strongly it should not be the norm. I feel that most people are attracted first to the regal, noble, alert breathtaking appearance then they learn about the heart and courage of the breed and devotion to it owner.

Why do we want to try to hide behind an appearance that is misleading??? We should embrase these dogs for what they are and what they were bred for. There are many that do not feel this breed should participate in bite work - again not being true to the temperament of this btreed. Who do we think we are fooling. Only sadly ourselves.

But in the end it comes down to I am for Freedom in America. I am for freedom for everyone. I would never support a dictatorship and I will not support hyprocrisy. I will stand firmly on my rights and on the rights of the breed clubs everywhere who are in charge of preserving their breed whatever it is. I would beg them all to be true to their own standard and not let outside influences sway you. Peggy Adamson herself said the breed standard as written should never be changed. Even back then she was aware of the dangers involved in changing our standard.

BreesMom said:

Hey I am one of those people

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lol So which is it, you want the pig farm to move or it's too dark!

MyBuddy said:

lol So which is it, you want the pig farm to move or it's too dark!

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too dark??

OH YEA, City folk move to the country and then say, What? No street lights!? Waaaaaa... It's too dark! Whine, whine, whine! Oh, don't get me started! LOL

MyBuddy said:

lol So which is it, you want the pig farm to move or it's too dark!

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I like the dark, I like the no neighbors close by, I like everything but the smell....but I grew up in a small town surrounded by farms so the town smelled the same as my home in the country....but still don't like the smell LOL!!

hehehe we had new city people move next door and they complained at weaning time cause the calves were bawling lol cracked me up!!! can't wait till the bob cat is in heat and comes screaming down the creek *LOL* or the bears tear down all their bird feeders for the bird food!!! OH and I am laying a track for the raccoons right for their trash cans

Dobs4ever said:

I do find it hard to believe someone wants a dog but doesn' t want to follow the standard of that breed club.

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I am in Canada and CKC stardard stands for:
"Head
Long and dry, resembling a blunt wedge, both frontal and profile views. When seen from the front, the head widens gradually towards the base of the ears in a practically unbroken line. Top of skull flat, turning with slight stop to bridge of muzzle, with muzzle line extending parallel to the top line of the skull. Length of muzzle equal to length of skull. Cheeks flat and muscular. Lips, lying close to the jaws, and not drooping. Jaws full and powerful, well filled under the eyes. Nose solid black in black dogs, dark brown in reds, dark gray in blues, and dark tan in fawns. Teeth strongly developed. Lower incisors upright and touching inside of upper incisors—a true scissors bite. Forty-two teeth (22 in lower jaw and 20 in upper jaw) correctly placed. Distemper teeth not to be penalized. Eyes almond-shaped, not round, moderately deep set, not prominent, with vigorous, energetic expression. Iris of uniform colour, ranging from medium to darkest brown in black dogs, the darker shade being the more desirable. In reds, blues and fawns, the colour of the iris should blend with that of the markings. Ears either cropped or uncropped. The upper attachment of the ear, when alert, should be on a level with the top of the skull. If cropped, the ears should be well trimmed and carried erect. If uncropped, they should be small and neat, and set high on the head. "

It may clarify the confusion... Gino and Asha are standard Dobermans in Canada
It doesn't make sense for me to continue as we have different standards.

Katja Henriksen said:

Thank you Judith, I was going to comment on that as well. "I couldn't handle a natural Dobie" WTF! What is there to handle? It is the exact same dog. Just with all the parts.

Shas I wasn't sure what to think about the tail when we first got Bailey. The docking ban has just ben enforced in England a year before and we hadn't really seen any. I had seen a few (and lots of Rotties) in Denmark and was crazy about it. However when we went to see the litter at 6 weeks and the 10 puppies sat there looking up at us wagging their little tiny tails, I was totally sold. I love the sound of their wagging tails. Yesterday when we got to the dog park and I was about to let them out of the car I could hear them waaagggging in there so happy to come out and play and I warmed my heart. Bailey's ears are fly ears and by no means perfect, but that doesn't mean I love her any less. It bothered me in the beginning, but now I think it's just part of her. I agree that the c/d Dobies are beautiful but so are the intact ones. It may be a matter of preferring the c/d look but I am sure you would all survive and still love the breed even with a docking and cropping ban. It is just a matter of what you are used to looking at.

I really didn't want to get started again on this subject as we have been through it all before but we have some new additions to this thread so wanted to comment.

Susan, really??? I agree with DreamValley. I think we just need to lay this one to rest. The dog is still the same lovely, beautiful, fantastic breed wether it is c/d or not. Nobody takes the ears and tail into consideration when breeding so it has nothing to do with the confirmation, temperament and workability of the dog. Seriously. Don't be so superficial guys.

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It's funny with this thread, I was just trying to get an idea of what people's opinions are with D/C. Some are more opinionated than others. As it is right now... the ears aren't what makes Bohdan him, it is his incredible personality, his loving heart, the willingness to please us. Besides if I cropped his ears now, how would I be able to pull them back like they are in pigtails and ask him who is the prettiest??? lol Thank you all for you input!

Naturallyred said:

Besides if I cropped his ears now, how would I be able to pull them back like they are in pigtails and ask him who is the prettiest??? lol Thank you all for you input!

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Very Cute!~

If I remember Wayyyyyyyyyyy back to your original post, you said your dog was 4 months old? If I were to answer just your question on should you crop him now, it would be a resounding NO. He's too old and even though I am passionate about c/d I would never do it when I know it's too late. He is adorable the way he is!

Naturallyred said:

It's funny with this thread, I was just trying to get an idea of what people's opinions are with D/C. Some are more opinionated than others. As it is right now... the ears aren't what makes Bohdan him, it is his incredible personality, his loving heart, the willingness to please us. Besides if I cropped his ears now, how would I be able to pull them back like they are in pigtails and ask him who is the prettiest??? lol Thank you all for you input!

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It can not be said any better!

As said by Trinity, we have been down this road before and there is really no need to do it again as it is all the same arguments that are made. DreamValley I agree that there is no point as we are never going to agree on this.

Suzan the arguments you are making have nothing to do with our reason for not wanting to crop so we are just speaking past each other.

Dream Valley - I assure you your standard was changed to accomodate the wave of political correctness to suit a group of people who don't even like pets period. As I stated I have no problem with choice if the next step is not to eliminate my choice. Canada is quickly heading down that road as s America. Canada has just already taken the fatal step in that direction. I know I follow all the BSL stuff as best I can and it is frightening.

Unfortunately BSL does not ban only cropped and docked dogs it profiles as dangerious entire breeds - so today IF WE give others, i.e. the govenment the power to dictate whether we can C/D, whether we MUST S/N, the next stop will be the banning of the breed period. So I agree with D4E on this one - I have no quarrel with owners having the with Right and Liberty to choose what to do with their own animals - I just want to ensure that I don't loose the right to own a doberman at all.

To me it isn't about if the dog should be cropped and docked or not it is simply wanting to have the choice!!!!

BreesMom said:

To me it isn't about if the dog should be cropped and docked or not it is simply wanting to have the choice!!!!

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EXACTLY !! ME TOO!! I don't like the trend of so much government telling us what to do!!

Dobs4ever said:

Dream Valley - I assure you your standard was changed to accomodate the wave of political correctness to suit a group of people who don't even like pets period. As I stated I have no problem with choice if the next step is not to eliminate my choice. Canada is quickly heading down that road as s America. Canada has just already taken the fatal step in that direction. I know I follow all the BSL stuff as best I can and it is frightening.

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The matter of fact they accomodated my preference too... now I can show Asha

I don't see the connection between cropping/docking and ilimination of the Doberman breed.
Do you see it in Western Europe?

I respect your choice and I don't support the ban on C/D.

Thanks Dream Valley - It is choice that has always been part of the stnadard and uncropped has always been allowed. Part of the probelem is for example there is no correct discription of the correct tail carriage and shape or the ears as far as that goes so judging is anyones guess. Then you start to see strange things winning. So for them to change it means there are other changes coming. I have talked to a few breeders in Englnad and they are sad they lost the right. They feel they are limited on where they can sell dogs. But it happend a long time ago so most have had to swallow it and live with it or get out of Dobes.

The government has no bujisness in Dog Breed cluh business. They can't run the country why should they add anything else to their palte especially when it is something they have no knowledge of either? If they showed me they could run the countr4y I might listen to them on this issue but until then - not going to happen

Dobs4ever said:

Thanks Dream Valley - It is choice that has always been part of the stnadard and uncropped has always been allowed. Part of the probelem is for example there is no correct discription of the correct tail carriage and shape or the ears as far as that goes so judging is anyones guess. Then you start to see strange things winning. So for them to change it means there are other changes coming. I have talked to a few breeders in Englnad and they are sad they lost the right. They feel they are limited on where they can sell dogs. But it happend a long time ago so most have had to swallow it and live with it or get out of Dobes.

The government has no bujisness in Dog Breed cluh business. They can't run the country why should they add anything else to their palte especially when it is something they have no knowledge of either? If they showed me they could run the countr4y I might listen to them on this issue but until then - not going to happen

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That's for sure I agree with ya there the government is selling us down the river can't run the country but sure knows how to waste all our hard earned tax dollars You should see what they are doing to the poor long haul truck drivers it has become absolutely crazy! If you knew everything that was going on it appalling they are like a minority group that is totally treated like second class citizens and no one goes to bat for them! The illeagals get treated better by far! I don't know if our nation is ever going to rise up enough to fix the problems we have; and most of the troubles have been government created grrr!! Ok that's my ramble for the day sorry lol

I wouldn't be opposed to owning a dobe with cropped ears/tail dock.My dobergirl is only tail docked. Her ears are natural,and they are nicely set the way they lay. It seems to make her face more exspressive with the ears down. I'm just partial to natural eared dobes I guess. I do beleive it is the owners right to be able to crop and dock their dogs via veterinarian if they so desire.