Want to Become Breeder in Future; Where to Start?

[Panama]

Let's not forget the possibility of ....a litter of 10+ puppies and momma dog ends up with mastitis.... depending on the age of the pups, you could possibly have to tube feed newborn pups every 2 hrs. Done incorrectly, you could potentially pump their lungs full of milk. If you're luck, they'll be a wk or so and only have to rely on bottle feeding them.....again EVERY 2 hrs.

What about fading puppy syndrome / failure to thrive?
Then potential DINGS (because health testing wasn't done)... very scary and you end up with special needs dog(s) that either need to be put down or you keep, try to treat and raise yourself.

Your bitch whelps a litter, you start to take deposits.... and bam..... you pick up Parvo SOMEWHERE. Extremely expensive to save 1 pup let alone an entire litter. Those with deposits now want their deposits back....

It sucks, but you have to look at (and keep in the back of your mind) the worst case scenario.

 

[Tropicalbri's]

It sucks, but you have to look at (and keep in the back of your mind) the worst case scenario.

So totally agree with this! I have seen the worst case scenarios coming into the clinic and it is heart breaking.

 

[GOD'S GRACE]

I have seen the worst case scenarios coming into the clinic and it is heart breaking.

After living and working on the family farm, we can tell stories that break hearts...and your wallet.

 

[Tropicalbri's]

After living and working on the family farm, we can tell stories that break hearts...and your wallet.

I remember back in the late 70’s when parvo was first identified. The outbreak was frightening. We had at least 3-4 new cases a day and not knowing just how seriously contagious it was. The breed we saw most coming in with it was pit bulls.
We had 4 blood donor dogs, transfusions and IV’s were everywhere. It is a smell that has never left me. It was constant bleaching and cleaning, trying to figure out medication combos that showed promise of improvement. It was horrific. So many did not survive.

 

[Sir.duke865]

@Tropicalbri's i actually have been threw exactly everything you just spoke of with one of my staffies it is truly never forgettable and not fun at all I won’t even mention what I shelled out for treatment and my staff needed EVERYTHING that you could imagine fortunately Oreo made a full recovery and lived a long happy life but now I take every precaution to prevent going through that ever again

 

[Tropicalbri's]

staff needed EVERYTHING that you could imagine fortunately Oreo made a full recovery and lived a long happy life

I was so worried about my Doberman getting it because we lived in the Vet’s house that was attached to the clinic. The clinic and house like most in the Virgin Islands were open air, no real windows. It was a while before we were able to receive vaccines to vaccinate against it. We were getting IV solutions and medications shipped over almost daily. Bleach was a staple by every door. Must have had 30 step pans filled with bleach water going into every room in the clinic, kennel and my house. Needless to say we suspended all routine appointments and boarding until we got a handle on the outbreak. You could tell all the staff had a nagging worry about whether this was truly a species specific disease.
I am so glad your Staffie pulled through.

 

[Regalis]

And that's not to mention that parvo is mutating. We've had "super" strains locally that vaccines don't cover and are borderline immune to traditional treatment - and that's in other breeds. Dobermanns (and rotts) are exceptionally prone to parvo and it tends to be more deadly in them. Back in the day, a case of parvo was pretty much guaranteed to be fatal in both breeds. And it's SO easy to bring home.

It's not only financially burdensome, it's an emotional drain. Watching little pups struggle. Ugh. The smell is unforgettable. And forget having any more litters or brining home a new puppy any time soon.

 

[Sir.duke865]

To watch your high energy workaholic best buddy turn into a helpless can’t stand won’t eat ball and smell like death is a tragic feeling, the cost for treatment didn’t matter to me (until after anyway) i was going for broke and if I lost Oreo it wasn’t gonna be cause I didn’t try my damn best n offer everything I had to save her. It changes your look on things for sure and will test the nerve of the best of us I swear

 

[Oh Little Oji]

When we were fostering that American Bulldog / Pit Bull cross female I learned about a breeding culture, subculture, or at least attitude, that exists. I walked and ran this impressive-looking girl around our neighborhood and sometimes into/through adjacent neighborhoods. I'd never experienced this before (and we'd only lived in Cincinnati for a few months), but it was not uncommon for black males (relax, I'm not being racist – just reporting what I experienced) to shout at me things like "You gonna breed her?" or "You wanna breed her?" or "You got any pups?" This may be about the furthest thing from the ultra-stringent requirements for breeding that I am reading about here. You see an impressive-looking dog, you want a pup out of it. I'm not saying it's right. No, it's pretty wrong.

I recently crossed the street with Oji and I surprisingly had someone (again, a black male) in a Jaguar stop and let us cross when I was trying to let him proceed so I could cross in back of him. He then shouted to me something like "Great looking dog!" I replied "Thank you!" He replied "You got access to any pups?"

It does make me think of what must have existed a century or more ago in dog breeding. Not so much breeding based on impressive looks, but breeding on an individual dog's proven abilities. If a dog proved itself as an effective farm dog it was bred. If a dog was a good mouser it was bred. If your dog proved it was an effective guard dog you and others probably wanted a pup out of it. I think a survival of the fittest thing went on. As for problems that popped up, pups and dogs that had health problems were culled, not limped along at enormous expense and time. Business was taken care of. The most worthy dogs moved forward.

 

[Archer]

The fanatical Doberman people here? Not fanatical, passionate. We are absolutely passionate about this breed and we should be. Breed preservation depends on it.

I am a reputable Doberman breeder. I wasn’t going to post on this thread, but feel the need to. This is NOT a cheap breed to own or to breed. They are riddled with hereditary health issues. Cancer (Osteosarcoma), vWD, Wobblers, DINGS, DCM, CHF, MMM just to name a few. Are you familiar with any of these diseases? Do you know the genetic inheritance of these conditions? How they affect the dogs? Do you know how to read a pedigree? Do you how to properly match pairings? I bring all this up to show you, that breeding is more than just having two intact dogs of opposite sex and pairing them together. Much thought, time and money should be spent on breeding a dog of proper health, conformation and temperament. Breeding of any other nature or for any other intention than bettering the breed is breeding for the wrong reasons and will flag you as a BYB. A dog should NEVER be a paycheck, be it the breeding or selling of them and dog breeding can NEVER be a sole source of income if done correctly. Anyone who claims they do is nothing more than a puppy mill. Reputable breeders hardly make anything off their litters. We don’t breed for money. Anyone who thinks or feels differently doesn’t understand or respect what a preservation (responsible) breeder is or what we do. It is hard work...emotional work to bring a litter into this world.

Take my latest litter for example. Let me list my costs and let you make the decision if we are in it for the money or not...

Cost of show bitch: $2500
Cost to title said bitch: $3000
DNA coat color: $65
DNA vWD: $65
DNA DCM1 & DCM2: $140
DNA Degenerative Myelopothy: $65
Project Dog (DINGS): $200
OFA Hips: $350
OFA elbows: $350
Thyroid panel (MSU): $300
OFA thyroid: $60
Full blood panel: $200
Brucellois: $50

Echo: $250
Holter: $2400
Holter read: $30
OFA Cardio: $100
CERF: $30

Stud fee: $1500
Ship frozen semen: $400
Store frozen semen: $150
Surgical implant: $1000
Progesterone tests/cytology:$350
Apt Reproductive Vet: $90
Ultrasound confirm pregnancy: $150
Oxytocin: $50
Food for bitch in whelp: $240
Dewormer: $150
Puppy dewormer: $50
Puppy physicals: $90
Puppy vaccinations: $60
Ear crop: $600 (3 puppies)
Tail dock/dews $150
Microchips: $50
AKC registration of litter $60
Puppy food: $200

**this doesn’t include the cost for a C-section which you have to be prepared for. Typically $500-$3000**

**this also doesn't include the cost if your bitch gets mastitis and you have to pay for an exam, medication and the cost to bottle feed the puppies***

**this also doesn't include the cost if the puppies are born with congential issues, are sick, need surgery, or treatment for anything. I only included the cost of a HEALTHY litter that had zero complications during labor and after whelp. The cost to take care of genetically or otherwise sick puppies is ASTRONOMICAL and there is a huge chance you can lose them despite the best efforts**

** also didn't include the cost to travel for a live cover**

Cost to purchase puppy: $2500-$3000

Do the math. I had three puppies. I lost money. Most of us do even when we have larger litters. We expect to. The money we make off litters goes back into taking care of our lines by using it to health test, title etc as it SHOULD be used.

The top section has things that need to be tested ANNUALLY, which includes everything but the DNA tests and hip/elbows. The bottom section is specifically breeding related. There are many stud dog owners that will now only sell frozen in leu of a live cover. With the worry of STD related health issues it is becoming much more common to breed in this manner.

The things I listed are things that reputable breeders health test at a MINIMUM. Anything else flags you as a BYB. In this day and age of technology puppy buyers are educating themselves on the internet through forums and social media on how to properly look for breeders. They have been taught that breeding dogs with anything less than the health testing I listed above is a red flag and to walk away. It is also considered a red flag for breeders to continually breed their own pair to produce litters, or to use the same dam repetitively.

Dogs need to be proven to be a contributor to the future of the breed. Just having breed type and a uterus or sperm doesn’t make them worthy of breeding. The ones that should be bred are those with exceptional health, tempermeant conformation and breed type. Breeding anything else is just watering down the breed. If you really love his breed.. educate yourself and breed intelligently and correctly or don’t breed at all. Your mentor may know Pits, but Dobermans are different. Doberman breeders mentor Doberman breeders. Breeding for any purpose other than trying to better the breed will water down the breed. You have not proven you are interested in providing anything beneficial to this breed, only your interest to make money off of them, so please don’t breed dogs.

 

[Gelcoater]

The fanatical Doberman people here? Not fanatical, passionate. We are absolutely passionate about this breed and we should be. Breed preservation depends on it.

Doberman breeder here. I wasn’t going to post on this thread, but feel the need to. This is NOT a cheap breed to own or to breed. They are riddled with hereditary health issues. Cancer (Osteosarcoma), vWD, Wobblers, DCM, CHF, MMM just to name a few. Are you familiar with any of these diseases? Do you know the genetic inheritance of these conditions? How they affect the dogs? Do you know how to read a pedigree? Do you how to properly match pairings? I bring all this up to show you, that breeding is more than just having two intact dogs of opposite sex and pairing them together. Much thought, time and money should be spent on breeding a dog of proper health, conformation and temperament. Breeding of any other nature or for any other intention than bettering the breed is breeding for the wrong reasons and will flag you as a BYB. A dog should NEVER be a paycheck, be it the breeding or selling of them and dog breeding can NEVER be a sole source of income if done correctly. Anyone who claims they do is nothing more than a puppy mill. Reputable breeders hardly make anything off their litters. We don’t breed for money. Anyone who thinks or feels differently doesn’t understand or respect what a preservation (responsible) breeder is or what we do. It is hard work...emotional work to bring a litter into this world.

Take my latest litter for example. Let me list my costs and let you make the decision if we are in it for the money or not...

Cost of show bitch: $2500
Cost to title said bitch: $3000
DNA coat color: $65
DNA vWD: $65
DNA DCM1 & DCM2: $140
DNA Degenerative Myelopothy: $65
OFA Hips: $350
OFA elbows: $350
Thyroid panel (MSU): $300
OFA thyroid: $60
Full blood panel: $200
Brucellois: $50

Echo: $250
Holter: $2400
Holter read: $30
OFA Cardio: $100
CERF: $30

Stud fee: $1500
Ship frozen semen: $400
Store frozen semen: $150
Surgical implant: $1000
Progesterone tests/cytology:$350
Apt Reproductive Vet: $90
Ultrasound confirm pregnancy: $150
Oxytocin: $50
Food for bitch in whelp: $240
Dewormer: $150
Puppy dewormer: $50
Puppy physicals: $90
Puppy vaccinations: $60
Ear crop: $600 (3 puppies)
Tail dock/dews $150
Microchips: $50
AKC registration of litter $60
Puppy food:

**this doesn’t include the cost for a C-section which you have to be prepared for. Typically $500-$3000**

Cost to purchase puppy: $2500-$3000

Do the math. I had three puppies. I lost money. Most of us do even when we have larger litters. The money we make off litters goes back into taking care of our lines by using it to health test, title etc as it SHOULD be used.

The top section has things that need to be tested ANNUALLY, which includes everything but the DNA tests and hip/elbows. The bottom section is specifically breeding related. There are many stud dog owners that will now only sell frozen in leu of a live cover. With the worry of STD related health issues it is becomming much more common.

The things I listed are things that reputable breeders health test at a MINIMUM. Anything else flags you as a BYB. In this day and age of technology puppy buyers are educating themselves on the internet through forums and social media on how to properly look for breeders. They have been taught that breeding dogs with anything less than the health testing I listed above is a red flag and to walk away. It is also considered a red flag for breeders to continually breed their own pair to produce litters, or to use the same dam repetitively.

Dogs need to be proven to be a contributor to the future of the breed. Just having breed type and a uterus or sperm doesn’t make them worthy of breeding. The ones that should be bred are those with exceptional health, tempermeant conformation and breed type. Breeding anything else is just watering down the breed. If you really love his breed.. educate yourself and breed intelligently and correctly or don’t breed at all. Your mentor may know Pits, but Dobermans are different. Doberman breeders mentor Doberman breeders. Breeding for any purpose other than trying to better the breed will water down the breed. You have not proven you are interested in providing anything beneficial to this breed, only your interest to make money off of them, so please don’t breed dogs.

I was really hoping you were going to post in here.

 

[WiglWerm]

My goals are for Dobe breeding to enable me to stay home more often and work a traditional job less.

You lost me right here.

 

[GOD'S GRACE]

So I've been thing about this thread for a bit, thinking about puppies always makes us happy, doesn't it...they are like babies, everyone loves to see a cute baby too!

THEN REALITY SET IN....NO MORE PUPPIES, pee, poop, training, cleaning, biting, vet bills, etc etc....and I'm never going to have a liter of puppies! ahahahahahahahaha

 

[Kaiser2016]

THEN REALITY SET IN....NO MORE PUPPIES, pee, poop, training, cleaning, biting, vet bills, etc etc....and I'm never going to have a liter of puppies! ahahahahahahahaha

Anything involving more poop is the perfect deterrent for me!

 

[Tropicalbri's]

Anything involving more poop is the perfect deterrent for me!

Anything involving chewing of sheetrock, beds, EVERYthing in general times two, is a total deterrent for me. Poop doesn’t bother me but the chewing....

 

[Regalis]

I must be odd - I actually don't particularly like puppies. I much prefer them once they are mature. If I could skip over the puppy stage, I totally would, but I'm too picky about how they are raised.

Then again - I don't like kids or babies much, either. Lol. My kids are ok. But other people's kids tend to bug me.

 

[Sir.duke865]

@Regalis best response yet

 

[Tropicalbri's]

All I have to do is stroll down memory lane at the posts from others and myself in the Naughty Puppy thread. That is a shot of ice water to the face and will snap me out of puppy fever.

 

[Dogs4Life]

2. My goals are for Dobe breeding to enable me to stay home more often and work a traditional job less. This would enable me to be with my wife and my son, who has autism, a lot more. It would also give my son something to do because he loves dogs and he actually enforces my training.

First off welcome!! I will give you my background as far as Doberman's go and it's only about 7 months. I'm a new Dobe owner but have owned dogs my entire life.

My parents actually bred Dalmatian's for awhile when I was younger and If I had the time to tell you the horror stories I witnessed and lived through, I would. My parents absolutely did not do it for the money at all! They loved the breed and at one point were lied to from a breeder and had a horrific experience with the dog. At that point, they decided it was time to do their homework and look into all of the aspects of owning, breeding, training, etc... They did this for only a few years because of the immense workload caring for and breeding the dogs took on them. Not to mention the financial burden when the Dam had health complications during labor and so on and so fourth.

Back to Doberman's, while I can't give you much incite as far as breeding and what not, I'm just going to respond to your statement. When we got Zeus we also got one of his sisters, which long story short we had to get rid of her due to her highly aggressive attitude towards her brother and in my opinion it wasn't fair to them, to have one of them crated at all times. This was a HUGE stress on not only my wife and myself but our kids and our older rescue dog as well. I don't know much about your son or his functioning ability but I'm sure there are days that wear you down. I appreciate the thought of wanting to be home more to spend time with the family... but honestly to become a breeder do you really think you'll be spending the "extra" time with them.

I mean between all the vet visits, appointments, health screens, temperament, agility, show testing, etc... I couldn't imagine having NO kids and wanting to get into something as large scale as this. I originally wanted to breed Zeus when he was of the right age but began reading and doing a little research and the amount of things that need to be done and the "titles" he should have before anyone would even look at him as being worthy, just blew my mind. I have a full-time job, 3 boys under 10 and the little time I have now is wrapped up in sports, piano, theater/plays ,etc... So I realized to actually dive head first into wanting to breed him, was going to be an endeavor I did NOT have time for.

I'm not saying you don't have time nor do I know your currently situation. All I can say is write down the pro's and con's (the realistic ones, i.e. worst case scenarios) and go over them with your family. Figure out, if your son is having a bad day and your dog/puppies needs an emergency vet visit, etc... what would happen and how would it play out. I wish you the best of luck and in my opinion, you came to the right place to ask any and all questions about the breed!!

 

[Pudding]

OK, announcement time: We probably won't become breeders. I'm putting this idea to bed. Thanks to all for your input. In the future we'll probably just buy 2 males and let them head up property security.

I wonder if SickBallsSecurity.com is available? I could make a website and sell their services somehow...