Don't feel bad,you're not alone on feeling out of league.That's why I really appreciate threads like this,those that know share.Those like me(and you) can ask questions and learn.
An in depth study of the Doberman Standard [AKC]
- Thread starter Dobs4ever
- Start date
Dobs4ever
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I'm sorry the thread got hijacked. We are trying to discuss the importance of the standard and how it applies to the flesh and blood dog. We can start a thread on the show ring and how people feel about it. The show ring has value. Those who are serious breeders and competitors learn great knowledge from it as we share our ideas - see differences in the dogs and what is going on in other parts of the country. Always checking to see if we are on track or have we become kennel blind. There is so much good in showing and for the most part it is of great value.
Does it have its days you go home disgusted - yes but the good press on because it is a passion and you always strive to learn and grow. This is the American Doberman Standard - so we don't have all the grooming that long haired dogs have and grooming has little to nothing to do with the standard. Dogs who have performed well throughout the year ARE favored to win. It is no different than betting on a horse race or a dog race. Winners tend to win more than the unknowns who have not competed. There are definitely the sour grapes and the misunderstanding of those who have never shown. But for those who take it for what it is and what it is designed to do then it succeeds. It is a tool for sharpening your pencil. It is a time to come together and share ideas and learn different perspectives . It is a time to see the standard in action. It is a time to seek to improve what you have standing in your kennel. Is it perfect no - but I say go develop a better program rather than just try to destroy what we have.
Our club has Waine Singleton here this very weekend working with us. form follows function. You have to check to make sure you are staying true to form. A dog with good form will hold up longer working with less chance of injury. The standard is 2 PART - Conformation - Temperament. That makes up the standard. Both are important.
Dobermans is one of the hardest breeds to compete in because you can't hide much. There is no coat to cover up flaws that would be obvious to the naked eye. At natls several of the top handlers were in black showing black dogs. It does not necessarily mean you are trying to hide anything because the overall structure of the program is designed to show up any weaknesses. It is why you hand stack, go around, down and back and free stack. All of that pretty much will expose problems. Because the form drives the movement. EX. If shoulders are to far forward you will have more of a hackney movement. Skirt or pant color will not hide that. But if you want to judge to see better without straining then you are better to wear a lighter color but in the end in the Doberman ring you won't hide much of anything and this thread is presenting the Doberman Standard.
Does it have its days you go home disgusted - yes but the good press on because it is a passion and you always strive to learn and grow. This is the American Doberman Standard - so we don't have all the grooming that long haired dogs have and grooming has little to nothing to do with the standard. Dogs who have performed well throughout the year ARE favored to win. It is no different than betting on a horse race or a dog race. Winners tend to win more than the unknowns who have not competed. There are definitely the sour grapes and the misunderstanding of those who have never shown. But for those who take it for what it is and what it is designed to do then it succeeds. It is a tool for sharpening your pencil. It is a time to come together and share ideas and learn different perspectives . It is a time to see the standard in action. It is a time to seek to improve what you have standing in your kennel. Is it perfect no - but I say go develop a better program rather than just try to destroy what we have.
Our club has Waine Singleton here this very weekend working with us. form follows function. You have to check to make sure you are staying true to form. A dog with good form will hold up longer working with less chance of injury. The standard is 2 PART - Conformation - Temperament. That makes up the standard. Both are important.
Dobermans is one of the hardest breeds to compete in because you can't hide much. There is no coat to cover up flaws that would be obvious to the naked eye. At natls several of the top handlers were in black showing black dogs. It does not necessarily mean you are trying to hide anything because the overall structure of the program is designed to show up any weaknesses. It is why you hand stack, go around, down and back and free stack. All of that pretty much will expose problems. Because the form drives the movement. EX. If shoulders are to far forward you will have more of a hackney movement. Skirt or pant color will not hide that. But if you want to judge to see better without straining then you are better to wear a lighter color but in the end in the Doberman ring you won't hide much of anything and this thread is presenting the Doberman Standard.
Dobs4ever
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Now back to the standard - Feet and Pasterns - In horses there is a saying that if you don't have strong hooves you don't have a horse.
The feet and pasterns support the entire weight of the dog and are the shock absorbers. Nice tight cat like feet will help prevent broken toes and other injuries. The pad of the foot is the cushion to protect the feet and leg bones and keep them from splintering on impact.
The feet and pasterns support the entire weight of the dog and are the shock absorbers. Nice tight cat like feet will help prevent broken toes and other injuries. The pad of the foot is the cushion to protect the feet and leg bones and keep them from splintering on impact.
Kitty's mom
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Tad, that's the way it should be, but the reality is that it is not. Just like a dog having and AKC pedigree doesn't mean it's going to be top quality. Having a pedigree full of CHs means that the lines don't have disqualifying faults, but it doesn't mean the faults aren't there and either hidden in the real world or hidden on paper.
D4E I totally get the importance of this thread but deep discussions about Standards, and Type, Temperament, Movement, Dominant/Recessive genetics etc get lost on many readers. I sincerely apologize for hijacking your thread as it is a serious one, sometimes a bit of humor can help keep Showing/Performance in perspective.
The post with the Dog Steps video helps explain just how the terms in the standard apply to the everyday functionality of a dog. It allows people to understand what a judge is looking for when it compares a dog to the written standard that we are discussing in depth.
I am taking your advice and starting another thread with my thoughts on how competition destroys the breeds and how it could be prevented.
No need to apologize - I split the thread off to a new one since there'a already a ton of good info. 
https://doberman-chat.com/community/threads/presenting-your-dog-in-the-show-ring.22421/
https://doberman-chat.com/community/threads/presenting-your-dog-in-the-show-ring.22421/
Dobs4ever
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I think that is a great topic for discussion and I look forward to it. Thanks for coming up with it. But I will say lack of competition is just as likely to destroy quality as not!!! See you on the flip side!!!
Dobs4ever
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We are coming to the end of this study of the structure (conformation) of the Doberman. My hope is, it helps everyone see the different parts of the dog and then bring to dog together to show the total correct dog. If we understand the value of correct conformation they hopefully we can have a little appreciate for the "beauty pageant" because it is so much more important to breeders who care about this stuff than just some darn ribbon. Why is the front assembly and the rear assembly so important??? Why the shape of eye, why the ear set, why the tail set???? Because it all affects the dog over all.
It bears the weight - it provided both efficiency and stability of movement. If a dog is over angulated in the rear it will cause the dog's back feet to over- reach the front feet. This causes the back in to have more stress and less efficient in movement as the feet are out of sync. Remember the song that went something like this - the foot bones connected to the ankle bone and the ankle bone is connected to the leg bone???? Well it starts with a very solid foundation and the feet and legs are the first part of the pyramid as we build up the dog.
When people say they just want a pet not a show dog so don't care then I guess when they go cheap they don't care about the money that can be spent on problems and surgeries to correct poor conformation. Whether it is hips (the most common) or the neck - incorrect creates problems for the dog in movement, balance, and stability.
It bears the weight - it provided both efficiency and stability of movement. If a dog is over angulated in the rear it will cause the dog's back feet to over- reach the front feet. This causes the back in to have more stress and less efficient in movement as the feet are out of sync. Remember the song that went something like this - the foot bones connected to the ankle bone and the ankle bone is connected to the leg bone???? Well it starts with a very solid foundation and the feet and legs are the first part of the pyramid as we build up the dog.
When people say they just want a pet not a show dog so don't care then I guess when they go cheap they don't care about the money that can be spent on problems and surgeries to correct poor conformation. Whether it is hips (the most common) or the neck - incorrect creates problems for the dog in movement, balance, and stability.
Wow no need to be a dick and this is a ACK breeder in the USA so you should do your research before you answer a question that you clearly don't know shit about .. And I'm pretty shore the blue dob is also not a original breed either but thank you for your snappy reply and wish you luck in your travels for knowledge
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Dobs4ever
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Really sorry you are so sensitive. Blue is a part of the gene pool ever since Goeller bred in the great dane. So they have been producing them in Europe they just used to cull them so no one knew. They however, in their infinite wisdom have banned both the blues and fawns although not a genetic defect as the albino gene. Blue and Fawn are approved colors in the USA. The albino is banned everywhere due to the detrimental influence it would have on the healthy normal gene pool.
There are certainly folks who have rescued the albinos but for the most part most are too wise to support directly an albino breeder who breeds against the guidelines of its own breed club.
There are certainly folks who have rescued the albinos but for the most part most are too wise to support directly an albino breeder who breeds against the guidelines of its own breed club.
Rob, you are new here. You should take your time in learning about this community before responding so harshly to a member such as Dobs that has been in Dobermans for a long time. She is a wealth of information and nowhere did she step out of line. You however did. Your question was a bit off topic but D4E was kind enough to explain and answer your question. Please watch the language and I encourage you to introduce yourself first and to feel free to make your own thread so that you will get a better response on your question.
https://doberman-chat.com/community/forums/introduce-yourself.80/
Dobs4ever
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Bone Density
Keeping bone is a never ending quest. You can loose it in one breeding and it takes several to get it back. A Doberman should never remind you of a whippet or a Rottie. Both ends of the spectrum are out of balance for the Doberman. One way to judge is to take your hand and try to circle the front leg near the top. Your fingers should not be able to wrap around and touch. Of course size of hand would also make a difference but it gives one something to visualize and do for yourself on your dogs. The more we learn and picture the better we understand the challenge breeders face.
Keeping bone is a never ending quest. You can loose it in one breeding and it takes several to get it back. A Doberman should never remind you of a whippet or a Rottie. Both ends of the spectrum are out of balance for the Doberman. One way to judge is to take your hand and try to circle the front leg near the top. Your fingers should not be able to wrap around and touch. Of course size of hand would also make a difference but it gives one something to visualize and do for yourself on your dogs. The more we learn and picture the better we understand the challenge breeders face.
Top of the lower or upper forearm? Obviously a male would have more bone then a female, so what would you use to gauge the difference between the two?
Dobs4ever
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Top of the Upper arm. This is a gage Ray Carlisle gave at a UDC Breed seminar several years ago. Regardless of M or F if you have an average size hand the fingers should not touch. So in males there would be more density than females but still in a female their should be enough bone density that the fingers do not touch. The example he was using was a bitch.
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