Question for ya

[DLS]

35 years is a long time. Strange I never saw or heard of one in that time. I guess i must of had my head buried in the sand. Odd I learned so much about this breed that I LOVE in that time, but missed the different colors. I will still mouth off whenever I hear of someone trying to change this breed to suit their fancy.
If any of you do have pups who are white, solid, brindle, obviously cross-bred, etc., Please have them Spayed or Neutered. Help keep this Breed pure. I love them just the way they are.

 

[MLR]

I hate to say this DLS but jstlovesdobies is right. Here in this country you can go to jail for this. I didn't know Canada was so liberal as to allow this practice. It doesn't sound like this fight can be won here in the US; not that it isn't a worthy cause as causes go. I'm really not trying to upset you. I know how frustrating something like this can be. All I'm saying is that we, each of us, need to pick our battles wisely or we don't acomplish much. Does that make sense?

 

[hrd2gt]

my trainer told us about this 'culling' although I never heard that term. he said in europe that border collies, GSD pups that came out solid white would be drowned. Of course everybody body in my class are american and were devastated! We would love them regardless of the color, we are easy

I understand not breeding unHEALTHY dogs... but I dont think color really should be judged as harsh as health should be. Course I would be offended by a brindle dobie!! I wish they were that strict about something important like vonW (which i will never remember that abbreviation when i need to)

 

[Miller Dobes]

There are over 2000 members of the DPCA in all 50 states. They made the standard and presented it to AKC. They are the breed club that decides what the standard will be for AKC.......and what a doberman should look like. If you don't like the standard, then join that club and see how far you get with those people in changing that standard...not.. This board does not determine the standard. It is the breed standard for AKC that determines a quality dog and a dog that is not acceptable. These people and those that have bred longer than some of us have been alive wanted a working dog that was not an albino because with that did come lots of health issues. No one person made the standard, but a group of doberman lovers that felt like this standard decribe this AKC breed. Whites are not acceptable by the AKC as a quality dog and is disqualified from even competing because it is inferior. Debating that is silly because it's the AKC standard approved by the dpca. That's the breed. If you have whites, the dpca advises you to have them fixed. If you don't like it join the club and change it or go to some less popular kennel club because this is the AKC breed.

If any of my posts asking why the dog wasn't fixed becomes an excuse for not fixing a dog now, that's ridiculous. There are a lot of white or Z factor breeders on this forum...I don't agree with them, nor does the forces that make our breed standard. I will always speak plainly, politely, and speak up for the breed I love. If you don't like it, don't read my posts. If this is a board to get information and education and help, then they need to know what is acceptable and what's not.

Becky

 

[Dobejazz]

I hate to say this DLS but jstlovesdobies is right. Here in this country you can go to jail for this. I didn't know Canada was so liberal as to allow this practice. It doesn't sound like this fight can be won here in the US; not that it isn't a worthy cause as causes go. I'm really not trying to upset you. I know how frustrating something like this can be. All I'm saying is that we, each of us, need to pick our battles wisely or we don't acomplish much. Does that make sense?

I didn't take DLS's post to mean Z factored and white dobes should be euth'd at birth but rather people need to be educated to the standard and breed for it rather than purposely or accidentally breed them.

Breeding to the standard is how we have dobermans today. Breeding out/away from the standard is causing breed type to be lost which to me is a shame.

 

[Miller Dobes]

my trainer told us about this 'culling' although I never heard that term. he said in europe that border collies, GSD pups that came out solid white would be drowned. Of course everybody body in my class are american and were devastated! We would love them regardless of the color, we are easy

I understand not breeding unHEALTHY dogs... but I dont think color really should be judged as harsh as health should be. Course I would be offended by a brindle dobie!! I wish they were that strict about something important like vonW (which i will never remember that abbreviation when i need to)

It's not against a color but against bringing in the health issues associated with albinism in mammals. It is about the health in the breed and not color. Albino mammals are not as healthy. That's Science, not my opinion.

Vwd is a bleeding disorder that can be breed out. Dobermans have type 1 and very rarely die of Vwd, like they do with other health issues...most affected do not even bleed and you don't know they have the gene if you don't test for it. There are two in all the dobermans listed on the dpca website that died of Vwd. It is a condition that can be bred out and improving the breed by testing.

Becky

 

[hrd2gt]

I remember seeing a dobie book of show dogs, that kinda had what they were tested for and what not... and remember seeing the Vwd... I asked my friend about it and she explained how you cant breed carriers together.. and i was suprised to see how many were carriers... if they are carriers... shouldnt the not be bred period? hate for a bleeding disorder to get worse... maybe they should have a V factor. Now thats something they should work towards.

 

[Silent]

The majority of vwd affected are not clinically affected. In a perfect world no one would breed carrier to carrier or carriers at all... but its not a perfect world. What if we find out later that the gene(s) that cause cardio are dominant in the vwd clears? If we cull the breed to breeding nothing but clears we would have a very limited gene pool, the dobe gene pool is already pretty limited. Ideally even an affected who has other great traits like health, longevity and conformation can be bred to a clear and not produce any affecteds. In the scheme of dobe health issues vwd is not the worst demon. Sometimes you have to choose between the lesser of two evils. We only have one real test (other than color) which gives a definite answer in dobe health issues, vwd. We dont have tests for the genes (or combinations of) that cause cardio, cancer, cvi, hip and elbow dysplasia, thyroid etc.

Sometimes it's best not to cut off your nose to spite your face.

 

[Miller Dobes]

The majority of vwd affected are not clinically affected. In a perfect world no one would breed carrier to carrier or carriers at all... but its not a perfect world. What if we find out later that the gene(s) that cause cardio are dominant in the vwd clears? If we cull the breed to breeding nothing but clears we would have a very limited gene pool, the dobe gene pool is already pretty limited. Ideally even an affected who has other great traits like health, longevity and conformation can be bred to a clear and not produce any affecteds. In the scheme of dobe health issues vwd is not the worst demon. Sometimes you have to choose between the lesser of two evils. We only have one real test (other than color) which gives a definite answer in dobe health issues, vwd. We dont have tests for the genes (or combinations of) that cause cardio, cancer, cvi, hip and elbow dysplasia, thyroid etc.

Sometimes it's best not to cut off your nose to spite your face.

You got it Silent! I saw somewhere where you posted the VenGen's recommendations on Vwd. Vwd seldom is lethal and it's rare they bleed, even when affected. It is a DNA test you can use to know exact results and that's great. You do have to test though. You can't tell by saying they don't bleed.

becky

 

[DobieLvr]

Whites are not acceptable by the AKC as a quality dog and is disqualified from even competing because it is inferior. Becky

The ONLY thing a white Doberman cannot do is be shown - it is disqualified from the ring only...
The White Doberman's CAN be shown in any other function - Agiility, Obedience, etc.
AKC does accept Registration for these dogs... the dogs are Registered with AKC...

You keep forgetting, AKC is a REGISTRY ONLY.... they are not law enforcement, etc... they are simply there for breed registry.

 

[Miller Dobes]

I didn't take DLS's post to mean Z factored and white dobes should be euth'd at birth but rather people need to be educated to the standard and breed for it rather than purposely or accidentally breed them.

Breeding to the standard is how we have dobermans today. Breeding out/away from the standard is causing breed type to be lost which to me is a shame.

Thanks for this post. Listening to those that have a lot more experience is certainly a way of learning more. The AKC standard is there for a roadmap of what this breed should conform. No dog is perfect but a disqualifying fault is way different than a fault. It means the dog can not even be entered in confirmation. That message is clear. This standard is the AKC standard for this breed. DPCA revises and approves that standard. That club has a lot of people that has worked to perserve this breed and most have alot more experience than our opinions.....ethical breeders breed to the standard or have the dogs fixed if they are not quality. Dogs that have a disqualifying fault are not considered quality dobermans. That's not my opinion, that's just the implications. It's our breed standard.

I personally don't know a single person that would Euth'd a puppy today unless it was in pain etc. but back in the days people did things differently.

Becky

 

[DLS]

Some of you are misreading my posts. Read them again with your brains not your emotions.
Hug your Dobes.................I am off FISHIN"!!!!!

 

[DobieLvr]

In a perfect world we would all think the same way, it's not and we don't - but there will always be those who think outside the box. Here is the definition of a breed standard from Wikipedia:

A breed standard (also called bench standard) in animal fancy and animal husbandry is a set of guidelines which is used to ensure that the animals produced by a breeder or breeding facility conform to the specifics of the breed.

Breed standards are devised by breed associations or breed clubs, not by individuals, and are written to reflect the use or purpose of the species and breed of the animal. Breed standards help define the ideal animal of a breed and provide goals for breeders in improving stock.[1] Breed standards are not scientific documents, and may vary from association to association, and from country to country, even for the same species and breed. There is no one format for breed standards across all species, and breed standards do change and are updated over time.[1]

Personally - I'm tired of the conversations of whether puppies should be born, or the Z factored/white dogs should be permitted. While it makes for a great debate, it has been debated to death on other forums. Would those of you that are slamming them so hard prefer that the owners didn't post about their dogs on here? For those that own the White Doberman's etc - should they just go simply somewhere else because they don't fit your ideas of what a true Doberman is? They can't enjoy being part of a forum? Because the constant and continued bashing of the dogs they own - it really appears to me and I'm sure others that is the case- makes them uncomfortable about posting at all? It doesn't take much for people to not feel welcome - to feel that they shouldn't love their dogs or to share what they enjoy about owning their dogs and that is what seems to keep getting lost here.

Isn't there room on here for everyone, no matter what your opinions are?

 

[MLR]

I couldn't agree with you more jstlovesdobes. It's pretty hard to take on a daily basis coming here and hearing the dobes I love with all my heart being put down on a routine basis because they don't 'fit' some standard of perfection. There has to be a happy medium in all this so that we all feel welcome. As far as I'm concerned my two guys are champions just being who they are and returning my love for them.

 

[Dobiegirl]

BRAVO BRAVO BRAVO :thewave2:

Personally - I'm tired of the conversations of whether puppies should be born, or the Z factored/white dogs should be permitted. While it makes for a great debate, it has been debated to death on other forums. Would those of you that are slamming them so hard prefer that the owners didn't post about their dogs on here? For those that own the White Doberman's etc - should they just go simply somewhere else because they don't fit your ideas of what a true Doberman is? They can't enjoy being part of a forum? Because the constant and continued bashing of the dogs they own - it really appears to me and I'm sure others that is the case- makes them uncomfortable about posting at all? It doesn't take much for people to not feel welcome - to feel that they shouldn't love their dogs or to share what they enjoy about owning their dogs and that is what seems to keep getting lost here.

Isn't there room on here for everyone, no matter what your opinions are?

 

[nc_dobemom]

In a perfect world we would all think the same way, it's not and we don't - but there will always be those who think outside the box. Here is the definition of a breed standard from Wikipedia:

A breed standard (also called bench standard) in animal fancy and animal husbandry is a set of guidelines which is used to ensure that the animals produced by a breeder or breeding facility conform to the specifics of the breed.

Breed standards are devised by breed associations or breed clubs, not by individuals, and are written to reflect the use or purpose of the species and breed of the animal. Breed standards help define the ideal animal of a breed and provide goals for breeders in improving stock.[1] Breed standards are not scientific documents, and may vary from association to association, and from country to country, even for the same species and breed. There is no one format for breed standards across all species, and breed standards do change and are updated over time.[1]

Personally - I'm tired of the conversations of whether puppies should be born, or the Z factored/white dogs should be permitted. While it makes for a great debate, it has been debated to death on other forums. Would those of you that are slamming them so hard prefer that the owners didn't post about their dogs on here? For those that own the White Doberman's etc - should they just go simply somewhere else because they don't fit your ideas of what a true Doberman is? They can't enjoy being part of a forum? Because the constant and continued bashing of the dogs they own - it really appears to me and I'm sure others that is the case- makes them uncomfortable about posting at all? It doesn't take much for people to not feel welcome - to feel that they shouldn't love their dogs or to share what they enjoy about owning their dogs and that is what seems to keep getting lost here.

Isn't there room on here for everyone, no matter what your opinions are?

VERY well said!

artyguy:

 

[Panama]

The AKC website would most likely not place very many Z factored puppies or I would think. Where you advertise is not as important as who you sell to or what contract you use or if you sell limited. Although, the sites mentioned are not dog related sites, nor do they have a good reputation for selling your dogs. They are put down many times because they take credit cards and sell to the first person that shows up with full registration. If you email me privately, I will be glad to share a contract with you that will protect your puppies from breeders. Z factored puppies should not be bred. Accident happened but what you do after that matters to each of those puppies. I hope you will consider protecting them as best you can. Full registration puts them more at risk than where you advertise. But then, it depends on if you want to place them in the best homes or sell them for the best possible price.

I hope this helps. Those puppies are precious lives and need to find the best of homes where they will be fixed, worked with, and loved.

Becky

You'd be very surprised at how many "Z" factored litters are advertised on the AKC website. When you click on a breeder's name, it pulls up the sire & dam's info (off to the left side). I counted them one day (was on 3 day recoup leave and bored). Out of the 34 ads listed, 14 of them were Z litters.

 

[Dobejazz]

In a perfect world we would all think the same way, it's not and we don't - but there will always be those who think outside the box. Here is the definition of a breed standard from Wikipedia:

A breed standard (also called bench standard) in animal fancy and animal husbandry is a set of guidelines which is used to ensure that the animals produced by a breeder or breeding facility conform to the specifics of the breed.

Breed standards are devised by breed associations or breed clubs, not by individuals, and are written to reflect the use or purpose of the species and breed of the animal. Breed standards help define the ideal animal of a breed and provide goals for breeders in improving stock.[1] Breed standards are not scientific documents, and may vary from association to association, and from country to country, even for the same species and breed. There is no one format for breed standards across all species, and breed standards do change and are updated over time.[1]

Personally - I'm tired of the conversations of whether puppies should be born, or the Z factored/white dogs should be permitted. While it makes for a great debate, it has been debated to death on other forums. Would those of you that are slamming them so hard prefer that the owners didn't post about their dogs on here? For those that own the White Doberman's etc - should they just go simply somewhere else because they don't fit your ideas of what a true Doberman is? They can't enjoy being part of a forum? Because the constant and continued bashing of the dogs they own - it really appears to me and I'm sure others that is the case- makes them uncomfortable about posting at all? It doesn't take much for people to not feel welcome - to feel that they shouldn't love their dogs or to share what they enjoy about owning their dogs and that is what seems to keep getting lost here.

Isn't there room on here for everyone, no matter what your opinions are?

I couldn't agree with you more jstlovesdobes. It's pretty hard to take on a daily basis coming here and hearing the dobes I love with all my heart being put down on a routine basis because they don't 'fit' some standard of perfection. There has to be a happy medium in all this so that we all feel welcome. As far as I'm concerned my two guys are champions just being who they are and returning my love for them.

For me and this is entirely my own opinion it is not about the dogs themselves - I have 2 of the worst examples of the breed right now - that doesn't mean I find them inferior or feel like they are being put down personally - My issue is not with the DOGS - I love all dobermans and want them all to be happy and healthy and loved regardless if they are BYB, white or white factored. I just think they should not be bred.

 

[dobesanddragons]

My issue is not with the DOGS - I love all dobermans and want them all to be happy and healthy and loved regardless if they are BYB, white or white factored. I just think they should not be bred.

very well said!

 

[dobesanddragons]

After telling a friend that I would not post the pups on the internet or in the paper she suggested the AKC website...

What do you all think???

Again their not even here yet, so I really shouldnt be worried so much about it yet, but I really want them to go to great homes...

Do you think that the AKC website may be an option? It would only be used if the pups hadnt found a home by 10 weeks of age...
Hopefully it wont come to that, but you all know me...I think way way ahead.

Any suggestions?

PLEASE spay and neuter the puppies before placement, so this won't ever be an issue again for your puppies and their owners to have to do go through.

Since you want them to have really great homes, and you do not have a lot of experience with placing Dobermans (which can be very hard finding great responsible owners in a breed like this) I highly suggest you contact your nearest reputable Doberman Rescue. Let them know you made a mistake, neuter your male now if you haven't already and spay your female after the puppies are born.

Doberman Rescue sees your puppies all the time, what I mean is your puppies are like most in rescue from non titled and non health tested young dogs. Second, give them a decent direct donation for their help with your puppies. I feel this would be in your puppies best interest.

The reason you would want to go with rescue in this case is because they have the resources and knowledge to help you place your puppies in the best homes. Doberman savvy homes, homes that are dedicated and waiting. They have a wait list, people waiting who instead of purchasing from a BYB are more interested in saving a dog's life. They would make sure your puppies are placed spayed and neutered, fully vetted for their age, and they would be available to take the dog back for whatever reason. They don't change names, numbers, or where they live, they are always available as a resource for their adopters and have the knowledge base to answer all questions and take the dog back for the life of the dog. Also, they require adopters to sign a contract and do references, and do a home visit, all of which are very helpful and important when finding the best and safest FOREVER home for each puppy.

If you don't want to have help you at the VERY least please spay and neuter everyone involved in this, puppies and parents so mistakes and accidents never even have a chance to happen again. Even if you place the puppies with long time friends and family members, all if takes is a second for accidents to happen, a kid accidently lets them get together or any other number of reasons, you would eliminate this risk by altering them before placement and this cycle doesn't have to continue over and over and over again. It can stop here and it is up to you to do that and make sure it stops here.
And have a contract for puppy buyers and do home visits and call vet references.

I believe since you said you are thinking ahead, this would be good to think about. I haven't read all the replies in this thread, it is a long one. But hope this helps.