What has happened to purebred dogs?

Damasyn

Novitiate
Ok , I just saw a program ( or should I say half a program…I had to go to work) that pointed out how purebred dogs have changed and consequently the health of some of them have deteriorated so rapidly because of OUR breeding practices its..in my my opinion, just sickening. And this isn’t about “American vs. European” either because this show was filmed in EUROPE ! I guess you could say this is closer to being a “show quality vs. working”but it really shouldn’t be a US vs. anything. Anyway… here goes:

This was showcasing how man has manipulated the design and functionality of their dogs and the defects whether they be mechanical or neurological type diseases. First thing they showed was the Cavalier King Charles Spaniel which is, if not the most popular breed, very close to it in the UK. The short snout and small domed head is greatly prized in this breed which we all know makes it the focus for breeders to concentrate on. As a result, spreading like wildfire is a condition ( sorry I don’t remember the name ) where the skull is literally too small for the dogs brain ( sound familiar?? People seem to associate this with Dobermans, but its not our breed ) This is like cramming an elephant into your compact car. Which leads to pressure in the head causing severe pain as well as involuntary scratching, turning in circles, biting, seizures..and on and on whatever you can imagine can and does happen because of the pressures on the brain. The owners with money often try brain surgery to remove the pressure, but more often than not, the dog is put down. The German Shepherd is a dog that was bred for working ability. In the show ring they are shown with a slightly sloped down back and their back legs are extended out to emphasize this. But instead of straight backlegs, the dogs have been bred to emphasize a sloping back which in turn causes the back feet ( if you are looking from above the dogs back end) to turn inward at the hock and out at the toes. Its like if you touched your heels together and tried to point the toes out. They say that they are not German Shepherds now, but have been crossbred with FROGS haha. Then they showed a video of these GSD going around the ring, their gait and how wobbly their back legs were even while just standing. And they gave the best in breed to one of the worst looking gaited dogs there. They then showed video of working GSDs and regular pet GSD’s and then showed it to some of the judges and they said “a working/pet dog is not the correct version of a GSD, this dog that was ribboned today is the most desired and CORRECT GSD out there. UGHHH yeah I want a dog with wobbly back legs ! NOT!!

Then came a boxer who was linebred to the point of having seizures ( as well as parents etc etc ) Because of desired trait’s the breeder overlooked the fact that the dogs were having seizures, he kept breeding them to get the correct ,head, colors etc. As a result this particular boxer had grand mal seizures once a week after the age of 3, but this didn’t show up to his owners until AFTER they had bred him and spread his genes. Personally, those owners have more *sigh* I dunno, that dog seemed to be in soo much pain, they had to help him walk, they should have put him down, after watching this it made me just sick that they could let him suffer.

They showed pictures of dogs in the early years at shows like the Bull Terrier ( spuds Mackenzie) whose head used to look like a smaller version of a shepherd .. but today is turned downwards and the large bulging head we see. The Doxies originally shown were slightly longer backed with short legs. Now today the bodies are longer with super short legs, which result in major back problems and loss of mobility.

I don’t have a problem with the show world so please don’t think I am picking on the show world I love watching dog shows.. and to me its not really a American vs. Euro, but why cant there be ONE type? When did we sacrifice mobility and function to satisfy our egos? In my opinion, a dog should at least be able ( in theory ) to do the things it was originally bred for, we shouldn’t play God to make them prettier to suit us..at least not at the cost of a animals comfort and health. In a sense as Doberman people, we are somewhat lucky. Euro dogs are stockier and some would say “not as pretty”as the American , but that is in the eye of the beholder ( I admit to loving the Euro look ). BUT technically speaking even tho the American Dobes are a bit smaller boned, they can still do “work”if need be.
Anyway, I just had to air my frustrations at poor breeding for the sake of PRETTY. I think sometimes there should have been a line that never should have been crossed. A lot of these diseases that plague our best friends, can be layed at our feet. WE are the cause of the pain our furry loved ones go thru. We need to stop breeding animals for their weird contorted shapes or colors just to suit us.

Ok, sorry it was so long
 
You mean THIS documentry??? I have seen this one before.....


I think that they chose the most extreme cases of the dogs disorders,and the worst of the worst-so to speak to make a point. What creeps me out is the UKC judges actually AGREED with the way these dogs were bred.(particularly the GSDs who could not even stand up by the extreme angles they were bred towards,and he deemed them to ''uphold and meet'' breed standard as they sank on their weak back ends right in front of him-no way could they do the original purpose!)
 
Oh I am sure they picked the worst ones..most TV programs do for the shock factor..but it does happen and I think it happens way too much sad to say. Those GSD's looked horrible ! I just couldnt see how they could give them ribbons for looking the way they did. I just sometimes think that in some respects we have sunk to a new low.
 
Ok, I just wanted to stress again, this post wasnt aimed at any particular group or saying all breeders are bad or line breeding is bad or all show or working people are bad etc etc. I just thought it is interesting to see the lengths that we have gone to over the centuries to create the dogs and cats that we want and then seeing the poor or unethical breeders who breed for certain characteristics that result in genetic problems/mutations. And frankly who is to say where the line is??? Me??? NO...YOU??? probably not... Should there be a line?? Probably...but who's to judge when its crossed??

I mean take a look at some of our extremes...the new designed..."munchkin cat" the Old English Bulldog..how the breathing is sooo changed...how about the droopy eye dogs like bloodhounds. The wrinkly Shar Pei with skin issues. And on and on and on..

Anyway...this was just to generate talk or discussions or at the very least make a person think. ;)
 
The GSD's with the wonky rear ends are just horrifying. My mom and I went to a show a few months ago and we saw one as you have described. I don't understand how anyone can look at that animal and think, "hmmm that looks good to me". I have heard also of Collies being born with messed up or missing eyes because of breeding for the head shape. It is really concerning all around.
 
I know... Our trainer is big time into GSD's and she's horrified with some of the things happening (and breeders) out there... It's so sad when they try for designer things and degrade any breed at the same time....
And then there are designer dogs, but don't even get me started on that... :eek:
 
Oh yeah Jan..gawd dont get me started on the designer breeds..the breeders of these K-9's are even dumber than the average purebred BYB..if thats possible *sigh*
 
If you like and want a GSD but don't want an over-angulated one just get a working line GSD.
Seizures aren't caused from line breeding or inbreeding, they are caused by a dog with the genetic trait passing it on. Line breeding and inbreeding don't just automatically cause some "cosmic bad" in and of themselves.

If someone doesn't like the extremes of a particular breed when bred for the show ring nobody is holding a gun to their head making them get that kind of breeding. A lot of breeds have a working line equivalent. It may be a trade off however since in some breeds the working lines may not be watered-down in temperament and as easy to live with.

I think these shows are completely sensationalized and full of a lot of misleading information that causes a huge drama-fest with the public.
 
You said it... "caused by a dog with the genetic trait..." So when they are bred together whether line bred or whatever..ya still get dogs with seizures right? That was the point of it...they bred dogs with that trait back to each other etc etc. The result is the same. I dont have an issue with line breeding either..but if you have a genetic issue in an animal, dont do it.

It wasnt the over angulation necessarily either in the GSD , but how loose and uncontrolled their back ends were. The way they were rocking back an forth made a Dobe with Wobblers look like it had training wheels. I mean really, dont you think a dog should have a nice gait? Not one where it looks like they have Parkinsons Disease.

And your right, if someone does or doesnt like a particular type of dog, dont get it. But the point of this post was - There are the extremes out there Doxies who now have longer backs...which in turn..more back problems-there is no sugar coating that. SOME, I stress SOME dogs and breeds are beginning to suffer because of poor breeding or breeding for a particular trait. And like it or not, we are all affected at some point to some extent. Yes, these television shows enhance and showcase the extreme. But why should there be any issues at all?? If a little more care was taken with the breeding, there would be a lot less genetic diseases/mutations
Just to throw out an example here IF Wobblers could be cured by the Dobermans being 2 in shorter or 10 lbs smaller...would you do it?? Or would you breed for a "in Demand" larger dog with a 50/50 chance of getting the disease? IF Von Wild, could be cured by careful breeding, but as a result, the dogs would be " not as pretty" would you do it?
There comes a point when breeding for a specific physical trait causes issues/injury and for the most part these "traits" are just superficial. But their impact lasts for years.
 
The GSD's with the wonky rear ends are just horrifying. My mom and I went to a show a few months ago and we saw one as you have described. I don't understand how anyone can look at that animal and think, "hmmm that looks good to me". I have heard also of Collies being born with messed up or missing eyes because of breeding for the head shape. It is really concerning all around.


its killing me to see the GSd like this, i never realized how bad it went, but after i saw some videos on TV and looked around me, i saw what happens, i been a GSd person all my life, i still own one, i'm memeber now in a Schutzhundclub what has 99.8 % GSD and thanks goodness they are still like i remember the GSD, i have no idea what breeder think when the breed to those wobbly legs, damn it its a working breed and those dogs can't even walk well anymore, not to think about that would or could work. Just makes me so upset andi hope i never come acroos a breeder like that, because i know me what would happens lol
And Soleil, i think the same, how can some just even thinkabout, that those things are look good or it bettering a breed.
 
I really don't understand how on earth the show breeders of GSD ended up thinking that this deformity was attractive or good for the dog. I don't understand why any judge would reward it in the ring. But the combination of these two things has definitely ruined the show GSD. I just went and looked over their standard - they show the back legs as straight, fault cow hocked or toeing in. I would say the problem is two fold - breeders breeding incorrectly and judges rewarding it. If judges knew the standard and bred to the standard you would see correct leg action in the rear.

This is a case of the breed club needs to do its job just like DPCA did a couple years ago to combat the sudden SA fad - they printed a laminated standard and sent out everyone including all the AKC judges. They called attention to the standard and what was to be penalized.

I watched GSD ina show a couple years ago and they had a very nice straight moving shepherd in the ring and was sure since he was the only one that could move he would win. Not so - they rewarded the most crippled dog in the ring.
 
This is a case of the breed club needs to do its job just like DPCA did a couple years ago to combat the sudden SA fad - they printed a laminated standard and sent out everyone including all the AKC judges. They called attention to the standard and what was to be penalized.

Do you think that this has really made a difference? I can't help but think that the judges think they know more than the breed club. At least they know what 'they like', breed clubs be damned!!

It has always been my belief that show breeders breed what the judges are putting up. The coveted CH is more important than anything else.

JMHO,

Nellie
 
Nellie - I think it shows that they are not asleep at the wheel. I think making an effort is better then doing nothing. Yes I think all breeders tend to breed what they like period, and we would be less than honest if we did not admit it. I do feel that a lot of the problem lies with the judging system and you are so correct - we hear it all the time - judges put up what they like and exhibit an air of infalability. Some are very haughty and unapproachable.

I will tell you this also - I felt in the working side it would be a more even playing field. Again not so - I have seen judges who are good friends with someone let a dog pass that clearly did not perform as required and show favoritism - it gets so frustrating when on one side people say this is the ultimate test and we are better -then come right back and say well it is a watered down test and favors some more than others. I should not even get started on this one.

You just have to turn a blind eye to most of it and just focus on you and your dog. That is all any of us have control of. We need a group that wants it all - conformation, working drives, bone, size, more underjaw, correct angulation, correct stop, nice toplines, catlike feet, proper dentition, depth of chest, etc and we can throw in health just for good measure - But as breeders we all focus more on what we like the best. It is human nature.

In an ideal world we would work to learn from each other. I started in conformatio, but it left me thinking that there had to be more. Just always felt something was missing in the picture - then I got involved in working and learned or found a missing link if you will. But it was almost as lopsided as the conformation side, although the working side seems to have a little concept of the conformation side certainly more than the show side has of working. I have found I can learn from anyone and everyone. Each one makes me better or at least gives me the opportunity to get better if I allow it. We need people who are open to discussion and willing to work to learn form each other. No one knows it all.

It does scare me when I see the GSD and what has happened to them conformation wise. I look at dobes and it scares me what has happened to temperament. I go to the working side and see way too many roached backs (sorry that is one I really don't like) so see we are all guilty of something. I don't have the answers but would at least like people to think a little about what is going on and how can we help it. I am the only one that can correct me. I have to do it for the dogs whether I like it or not. A breeder should breed for correct standard dogs not just winning dogs.
 
We have to remember that dogs were bred for a purpose & if the winning show dog no longer fits that purpose (too weak, too timid, too aggressive, etc), then the shows (& the standards) fail. My personal opinion is that no dog/bitch should be allowed to post the title CH unless they have also won a title to demonstrate that he/she meets the breed's orginal purpose. Ex obedience & agility for Dobes & GSDs, herding titles for collies & shelties earth dog for terriers & dachies, carting for Berners.
 
Ex obedience & agility for Dobes & GSDs,

Sorry Freya. GSDs were bred for herding and Dobermanns ( or doberman pinschers ) were bred for Personal Protection. The Dobermann is the ONLY breed in history STRICTLY created to protect MAN from MAN. Of course this involved obedience and agility to a degree, BUT, first and foremost is the PROTECTION portion of the breed. And if one only looks, one can see that there are MANY venues available here in North America for just that purpose. This is why we title our dogs in a protection sport as well as conformation.
I agree with you that the COMPLETE dog needs to be judged and held to higher standards. There's more to a dog of ANY breed than just conformation.
 
I recently had a huge debate over the GSD's as they are a breed that I love and grew up with. There is a video shown from the 50's right through to today and they physical changes that WE have "improved" upon it. I will see if I can find that video and post it on here. My biggest debate is this: EVERY breed should be able to do what it was originally was bred for. Show me a GSD with these legs/back end that can herd and I don't mean for just a trial...but go with the shepherd to the field, herd them all up and walk them back home. WORKing dogs my ass!! There is not a chance any of those can do it.
I saw a magnificent male...he was young, not yet filled out, but his head was to die for as well as his "look at me" attitude...as my eye followed his body line, my heart dropped when it got to his backend. His legs were all over the place and he was just standing watching the crowd. He was oversized in my opinion but that is for another debate. :)
I think this starts from simply one judge finding a look particularly striking. I think Gail has commented on this before...when one breeder comes home with all these ribbons, the other breeders start to copy what she has done in order to do the same. I do believe this has a lot to do with us destroying the breeds we are supposed to love.
 

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